How do/did you feel about the return of the Enterprise-D?

[Daedalus]

Different things are going to speak (or not speak) to different people. IDIC, and all that.

But beyond that, is there an objectively right way to do nostalgia? I think that's what we're really discussing.

There likely will never will be an objectively correct way to do nostalgia, It's something we really have to live with as fans. You could say "less is more", which is often a fair common ground. But then again, how do you define "less" or "more" when it comes to wanting to see the things you love?

For my money, Admiral McCoy having a cameo in Encounter at Farpoint is probably the softest way to do nostalgia. It was brief, it made sense to have an original crewman from the new ship's namesake appear on its maiden voyage. But, it could also been seen as unnecessary as it doesn't advance the plot in any way.

Speaking of unnecessary nostalgia, La'an being related to Khan doesn't feel like it was needed beyond reminding fans of one of the coolest and well-known characters in Trek. Unless, of course, she's going to meet him? Or, if her lineage plays a huge part in the endgame? There could be reasons, but you still have to wonder why when you have Pike, Spock, Una, Uhura, Scotty etc.

PIC S3, probably a very good example of 'High-calorie' nostalgia. It tastes great if you loved TNG, like me, but even I felt like that fat kid in a sweet shop by the end. I enjoyed it, but I hope its not repeated too soon.

 

[Lord Garth]

I treated it as a one-time thing. People who can't (or won't) recognize that it's a one-time thing are overreacting. I didn't and don't expect anything else to be like this. A Picard Movie or Legacy will/would be back to PIC S1 and S2 levels.

I have a feeling they didn't act this way during "Trials and Tribble-ations" or "In a Mirror Darkly" when it was the TOS Enterprise or the TOS Defiant standing in for the TOS Enterprise. And they were on-screen in those episodes for roughly the same amount of time as the Enterprise-D in Picard.

This board is partially to blame as well. It's trained fans for over two decades to look down on things they might otherwise enjoy out of fear of ridicule. It's the high school mentality.

 

[evilchumlee]

It was absolutely amazing.

It should definitely be the end of it though.

Speaking of unnecessary nostalgia, La'an being related to Khan doesn't feel like it was needed beyond reminding fans of one of the coolest and well-known characters in Trek. Unless, of course, she's going to meet him? Or, if her lineage plays a huge part in the endgame? There could be reasons, but you still have to wonder why when you have Pike, Spock, Una, Uhura, Scotty etc.

I don't know how big of a role any of it is planned for the story at large, but at the very least the connection made a somewhat interesting causality loop... when La'an encounters young Khan, she seems to have purposely left the gun... which may in some way imply that La'an's interference help move along the Eugenics Wars, which she discovered in the episode HAVE to happen to ensure her future.

If it doesn't go any further than that... it's somewhat odd because they put in the character with the reference in and made the story about her coming to terms with her connection... the whole thing is only really relevant to her.

 

[DonIago]

I think part of my issue with the E-D's appearance in S3 is that it doesn't quite make sense to me from a story perspective. The decisions made by both Starfleet and Our Heroes seem contrived to get to this point rather than making objective sense. For instance, just one season earlier networked Starfleet ships were incapacitated by the Jurati Borg faction; yet here we are with Starfleet still embracing networking that proves incredibly susceptible to Borg infiltration. Did they learn nothing from their prior experiences?

Were there really no other modern Starfleet vessels that were unaffected within range?

Also, given the mission profile, was the E-D really the best choice? Wasn't the Defiant sitting right there, and if you were going to be attacking (and going inside!) a Borg vessel, wouldn't you want the most maneuverable and heavily armed and armored ship available?

Lastly, at this point they're in an extremely time-sensitive situation, but yet Our Heroes take their sweet time admiring the E-D and getting underway.

All of which is to say that it felt a bit too transparent that TPTB were allowing nostalgia to override logic, and I'm unconvinced that if they were hell-bent on reintroducing the E-D that they couldn't have found a more organic way to do so.

This isn't quite S3's fault, but by this point I was also damn tired of the Massive Threat to the Federation climax trope. Every season of Picard did it, but Prodigy also did something remarkably similar. Is that all TPTB have to fall back on? Lower Decks has managed to avoid it for the most part.

 

[evilchumlee]

yet here we are with Starfleet still embracing networking that proves incredibly susceptible to Borg infiltration. Did they learn nothing from their prior experiences?

The Borg were supposed to be a complete non-issue by that point.

Also, given the mission profile, was the E-D really the best choice? Wasn't the Defiant sitting right there, and if you were going to be attacking (and going inside!) a Borg vessel, wouldn't you want the most maneuverable and heavily armed and armored ship available?

They made a point to note that none of the other ships were operational. All of those other ships were literal museums now and non-operational. The E-D was built as Geordie's space hot rod.

Lastly, at this point they're in an extremely time-sensitive situation, but yet Our Heroes take their sweet time admiring the E-D and getting underway.

This isn't quite S3's fault, but by this point I was also damn tired of the Massive Threat to the Federation climax trope. Every season of Picard did it, but Prodigy also did something remarkably similar. Is that all TPTB have to fall back on? Lower Decks has managed to avoid it for the most part.

I think it's part of the peril of doing these serialized, prestige-format shows. Anything short of a Federation ending-level threat would probably be seen as boring. PIC S2 didn't do it, and everyone hates PIC S2.

Lower Decks has managed to avoid it because it's not really really all that serialized and can rely more on episodic content, same as SNW. SNW can have threats like the Gorn pop up, but they don't need 10 episodes devoted to The End Of The World.

 

[fireproof78]

Speaking of unnecessary nostalgia, La'an being related to Khan doesn't feel like it was needed beyond reminding fans of one of the coolest and well-known characters in Trek. Unless, of course, she's going to meet him? Or, if her lineage plays a huge part in the endgame? There could be reasons, but you still have to wonder why when you have Pike, Spock, Una, Uhura, Scotty etc.

There's some time travel that might have the answer

But, yes I do have that question, especially since Una has the Augmented background and can play with that, and that has factored more in Season 2.

But then again, how do you define "less" or "more" when it comes to wanting to see the things you love?

Always go for less, in my opinion. I do not subscribe to the idea that since I love this thing in Star Trek there should be more. Though, I am grateful that my childhood favorite captain in Pike is getting more. That's appreciated. But, I don't have the "more" mentality when it comes to entertainment I love.

 

[Praetor]

I thought the little riff of the "Voyager" theme when Seven was talking about it at the museum was touching, though.

 

[Nerys Myk]

PIC S3, probably a very good example of 'High-calorie' nostalgia. It tastes great if you loved TNG, like me, but even I felt like that fat kid in a sweet shop by the end. I enjoyed it, but I hope its not repeated too soon.

That was a perfect analogy.

 

[DonIago]

The Borg were supposed to be a complete non-issue by that point.

Why would the Borg be considered a complete non-issue so soon after the encounter with the Jurati Borg?

They made a point to note that none of the other ships were operational. All of those other ships were literal museums now and non-operational. The E-D was built as Geordie's space hot rod..

Fair enough; I didn't recall that being brought up. Although the idea of the E-D as a "hot rod" makes me snort.

I think it's part of the peril of doing these serialized, prestige-format shows. Anything short of a Federation ending-level threat would probably be seen as boring. PIC S2 didn't do it, and everyone hates PIC S2.

But the end of S2 did have a Federation ending-level event right after Jurati revealed who she was. Everything seems fine, and then bang, crisis...that's resolved within five minutes.

 

[Yistaan]

I'm wondering now, in light of Picard showing us that the Fed went through E and F pretty fast and D was ultimately rebuilt, we've been assuming for a long time that the "All Good Things" TNG Series finale future shown meant the events of Generations never happened. But what if we were wrong? What if Generations did indeed happen and the Enterprise D was eventually rebuilt with three nacelles due to Admiral Riker's influence?

Due to Geordi saying in AGT that he hasn't called Picard captain in 25 years, we'll have to assume that Geordi and Picard didn't serve together at the very least after Generations, meaning that First Contact and those other movies didn't happen. Romulus also still existed, albeit conquered by Klingons, in the AGT future meaning somehow Ambassador Spock or someone else succeeded in saving Romulus.

I'm guessing Picard learning in AGT that they all split up and telling the crew about this made them all decide to stay together on the E and we got the timeline we got. If AGT never happened, then Picard and the gang would've split up after the destruction of the D, Riker eventually orders it rebuilt, and somehow Romulus is saved.

 

[NCC-73515]

Lastly, at this point they're in an extremely time-sensitive situation, but yet Our Heroes take their sweet time admiring the E-D and getting underway.

they had to wait until the torpedoes were loaded and systems booted up

 

[James Cole]

It may be time to recalibrate “fan service” as a critique. Our JOB is to service the fans. To give them the very best version of what they came for, what they love. Sometimes, that involves elevating the familiar while evolving the story or world into something new by degrees.

Honoring history is important. Tonal, mythological, visual touch points are important. It’s necessary to challenge expectations, to move the story in dynamic ways — but within the context and creative language of the thing you’ve been tasked with safeguarding.

This is especially true in franchise storytelling. If you’re creating something new, by all means, push the form, press the genre to its limits. But when given something with a deep, shared history, your job is neither to impulsively redefine it nor pander to its simplest ideas.

If people show up for a burger, make the best damn shirt-rib, truffle, brioche-bun burger you can. Don’t lazily toss McDonald’s at them because it’s familiar. But also, don’t give folks a salad and tell them you know what’s best for their tastes.

I adore nothing more as a fan than when elements I once loved reappear — but with a new context, a fresh POV. Dr. Who excels at this. That Dalek dopamine hit is important. It’s why we watch and love things. How those things evolve is why we keep watching.

What critics mean when they say “fan service” is narrative pandering, hamfistedly tossing out memberberries. Fine. But the term is as insulting to fans as it is to writers. That all a “fan” really needs is some familiar nerd nugget to be happy. Bullshit. Fans are fucking smart.

S3 of Picard is thematically about the pace at which old things change as new things come along. Historical references are narratively thematic. Aesthetic & tonal choices underline the era of the character and the preferences of the creators. Nothing wasn’t carefully considered.

Yes, using the language of history to say new things is absolutely fan service. We share their love for Trek or Who or whatever legacy we’re hired to honor. That’s the gig. And there’s no bigger disservice to fans than tossing out what they loved & telling them what to love next.

If we can offer ways to view familiar things differently, find new ideas in old places, suggest creative pairings of your favorite ingredients — while making additive new contributions along the way — that’s how we tell fans we love not just what they love, but THEM, as well.

PICARD seasons 2 & 3 co-executive producer Christopher Monfette a year ago and change on Twitter.

I treated it as a one-time thing. People who can't (or won't) recognize that it's a one-time thing are overreacting. I didn't and don't expect anything else to be like this. A Picard Movie or Legacy will/would be back to PIC S1 and S2 levels.

If anything, PS3 helps balance out the extremely polarizing reception to some of PS1's decisions. And for many, the appeal of Legacy is just having a continuation/evolution of Berman-era lore, plot developments, design language, and tone, not "cheap STLD style member berries" or endless cameos for the sake of box checking cameos.

I have a feeling they didn't act this way during "Trials and Tribble-ations" or "In a Mirror Darkly" when it was the TOS Enterprise or the TOS Defiant standing in for the TOS Enterprise. And they were on-screen in those episodes for roughly the same amount of time as the Enterprise-D in Picard.

Does this really come down to TOS vs TNG? Well some rivalries never go away. And this could explain one reason why the vocal Berman-era anti-fans like SNW so much.

This board is partially to blame as well. It's trained fans for over two decades to look down on things they might otherwise enjoy out of fear of ridicule. It's the high school mentality.

There are definitely different types of Star Trek fans. PS3 certainly spoke to the in-universe continuity, lore, and ship fans. Tonally it was a little too revisionist from TNG, but at least it felt like a natural evolution from late DS9 and ENT and not a complete rupture, a la PS1.

 

[fireproof78]

PICARD seasons 2 & 3 co-executive producer Christopher Monfette a year ago and change on Twitter.

But, I don't want service..I want entertainment.

They way Mr. Monfette talks sounds like a drug pusher. It's disquieting.

Thinking more on it, I think this approach is one I disagree with because writers as fans is not a positive thing. At most, I'm neutral on it. But, to have a writer say, "look, we created this thing to prove our love" feels so pandering is uncomfortable.

Season 3 should appeal to multiple types of fans nor just the ones Monfette claims to be speaking for.

People should be able to criticize it as "fan service " because thsts what it is. It's not service to the story but patting me on the shoulder and reassuring me "we promise we love Star Trek as much as you do."

It's a hard thing to parse.

 

[Ssosmcin]

But, I don't want service..I want entertainment.

Thinking more on it, I think this approach is one I disagree with because writers as fans is not a positive thing. At most, I'm neutral on it. But, to have a writer say, "look, we created this thing to prove our love" feels so pandering is uncomfortable.

Season 3 should appeal to multiple types of fans nor just the ones Monfette claims to be speaking for.

People should be able to criticize it as "fan service " because thsts what it is. It's not service to the story but patting me on the shoulder and reassuring me "we promise we love Star Trek as much as you do."

It's a hard thing to parse.

There are different ways to show the fans they are being considered and franchise history is being honored. Picard S3's way was to throw out dozens of references and characters and even music cues from films totally unrelated to TNG (James Horner anyone?). Having JLP interact with character from every series (except perversely DS9 especially since it was about the damned changelings) makes the universe that much smaller.

I prefer the feature film approach. Peppering the films with references and details that solidify the universe without getting in the way of the story - or being the reason for the story. Hell, in 6 films, Kirk only met one guest star from the TV show. Although I would have welcomed Kang in Star Trek 6.

But the films just brought in some folks and references for seasoning and continuity. Among others:

Willard Decker being Matt's son without mentioning it (we have accepted that right?)
The Gamma Hydra system being near the Neutral Zone
John Winston returns in a bit role as Kyle when anyone would have sufficed
Tribbles at a bar
Rand and Chapel making quick appearances
Using the self destruct countdown
"All I ask is a tall ship."
Resolving Spock and Sarek's lifelong conflict introduced in the series

Yet, for all of those little touches, none of these films were about revisiting the past. They acknowledged the history, learned from it and, in the end, learned to grow past it. And when they did finally bring in someone from another show (and to be fair there was only one at the time), Col. Worf's appearance made sense and the film would have worked just fine without him. It was a nice little tip of the hat to a show the cast was still barely warming up to.

Today's Trek, and in particular Picard S3, which was a trivia contest in series form, references the past more than I talk about my own life. A friend of mine, who hung on every episode of season 3, texted me and said "holy crap did you write this??!!" I replied "if I did, it would be a lot more subtle."

When a non fan writer/producers does the homework and adds details it means a hell of a lot more to me and gives me a bigger charge than a die hard Trekker producer who can't stop making a high budget fan film. Easter Eggs are to be hunted for, not placed on a platter next to the pancakes at Easter breakfast.

Picard S3 was fun in that the cast is always a joy to watch. But take away the nostalgia and let me know if you think the story is any good.

 

[Lord Garth]

Does this really come down to TOS vs TNG? Well some rivalries never go away. And this could explain one reason why the vocal Berman-era anti-fans like SNW so much.

I'll let the Discussion thread from DSC's "If Memory Serves" do the talking.

Spoilers - Star Trek: Discovery 2x08 - "If Memory Serves" | The Trek BBS

Quite a different reaction there.

Then there's the oldest thread I can find for "In a Mirror, Darkly" in the ENT Forum. It's not 2005, but 2008 isn't too far removed.

"In A Mirror, Darkly" Discussion Thread... | The Trek BBS

And then here's a "Trials and Tribble-ations" thread in the DS9 Forum from 2009. It's the oldest thread I can find where they discuss it at length. TrekBBS didn't exist yet in 1996, and almost everything before 2007 was pruned, so this is the earliest we're going to get... at least from here.

"Trials and Tribble-ations" | The Trek BBS

 

[fireproof78]

Picard S3 was fun in that the cast is always a joy to watch. But take away the nostalgia and let me know if you think the story is any good.

I would really be curious to see such an analysis. Times like this I miss some of the podcasts I enjoyed a decade ago engaging in such discussion.

 

[fireproof78]

'll let the thread Discussion thread from DSC's "If Memory Serves" do the talking.

Spoilers - Star Trek: Discovery 2x08 - "If Memory Serves" | The Trek BBS

Curious. 51% rated it a 10, while 52% rated Vox a 10.

 

[DonIago]

I would really be curious to see such an analysis. Times like this I miss some of the podcasts I enjoyed a decade ago engaging in such discussion.

I think KRAD's and Jammer's reviews do a pretty good job with that.

 

[fireproof78]

I think KRAD's and Jammer's reviews do a pretty good job with that.

To be clearer, the podcasts I enjoyed were usually panels who actually sat around and discussed story structure, effects, characters, and their reactions. Solo reviewers don't do that the same.

 

[Daedalus]

There are different ways to show the fans they are being considered and franchise history is being honored. Picard S3's way was to throw out dozens of references and characters and even music cues from films totally unrelated to TNG (James Horner anyone?). Having JLP interact with character from every series (except perversely DS9 especially since it was about the damned changelings) makes the universe that much smaller.

I prefer the feature film approach. Peppering the films with references and details that solidify the universe without getting in the way of the story - or being the reason for the story. Hell, in 6 films, Kirk only met one guest star from the TV show. Although I would have welcomed Kang in Star Trek 6.

But the films just brought in some folks and references for seasoning and continuity. Among others:

Willard Decker being Matt's son without mentioning it (we have accepted that right?)
The Gamma Hydra system being near the Neutral Zone
John Winston returns in a bit role as Kyle when anyone would have sufficed
Tribbles at a bar
Rand and Chapel making quick appearances
Using the self destruct countdown
"All I ask is a tall ship."
Resolving Spock and Sarek's lifelong conflict introduced in the series

Yet, for all of those little touches, none of these films were about revisiting the past. They acknowledged the history, learned from it and, in the end, learned to grow past it. And when they did finally bring in someone from another show (and to be fair there was only one at the time), Col. Worf's appearance made sense and the film would have worked just fine without him. It was a nice little tip of the hat to a show the cast was still barely warming up to.

Today's Trek, and in particular Picard S3, which was a trivia contest in series form, references the past more than I talk about my own life. A friend of mine, who hung on every episode of season 3, texted me and said "holy crap did you write this??!!" I replied "if I did, it would be a lot more subtle."

When a non fan writer/producers does the homework and adds details it means a hell of a lot more to me and gives me a bigger charge than a die hard Trekker producer who can't stop making a high budget fan film. Easter Eggs are to be hunted for, not placed on a platter next to the pancakes at Easter breakfast.

Picard S3 was fun in that the cast is always a joy to watch. But take away the nostalgia and let me know if you think the story is any good.

If you remove the nostalgia, I'd say that I still would've enjoyed the season more than 1 and 2, in general. I think the odd-couple/antagonistic dynamic between Seven and Shaw, the more disciplined crew of the Titan and the performance from Amanda Plummer would've been enough to make this season really quite special as a finale.

The La Sirena crew never really did much for me in honesty, they always made for an uncomfortable watch. I couldn't get past Jurati's actions or Raffi's behaviour enough to think "Yeah, I'd follow this crew of misfits for another season!" So it was really quite refreshing to find my comfort zone again with the Titan crew.