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How did the Eugenics Wars start?

I very much doubt there were millions or even hundreds of thousands of Augments. Khan and his generation were considered "young supermen" when they took over; they were a generation created in scientific experimentation, not yet a "production model" but a mere "pilot run". They took their sweet time to mature, and then spent three glorious years ruling the world. There wouldn't really be time to raise any further supermen in that short period of time, even though Khan's ilk would no doubt try and start anyway (explaining the rows upon rows of material on Cold Station 12 shelves).

Moreover, mankind at large apparently knew the exact number of completed Augments, so that at the end of the wars, it could be ascertained that no more or less than 80 were unaccounted for. That probably wouldn't be less than one percent of the total, or more than ten percent...

OTOH, I find it unlikely that Khan was the most prominent of the supermen, or else our heroes would have recognized him faster - and his original disappearance would have made far greater headlines. I mean, Hitler's charred corpse didn't quell rumors that he might still be alive after 1945; Khan apparently didn't even leave a fake corpse behind, or else our heroes would have commented on that.

More probably, Khan was one of the lesser princes, perhaps exactly because he was one of the more benevolent ones. He ruled mere millions and never raised enough ire that anybody would have been interested in hunting him down at the conclusion of the wars. He may have been one of the smarter Augments, with more futuristic technologies and key resources under his command, but he probably wasn't the person who'd make Time's Man of the Year cover in either 1993 or 1996.

I suppose the lingering resentment toward the collateral damage caused by Americans (and American nukes?) might have been a root cause of World War III, obviating the need to consoldiate the two wars. :shifty:

We could just as well say that EW and WWIII had nothing to do with each other to begin with. There are only two Trek factoids that would tie them together, after all, and both can be tackled.

1) Spock says that the mid-1990s was the "era" of the last world war. McCoy responds by saying "Eugenics War". We can easily assume that McCoy was doing what he usually did with Spock's statements: correcting them. That is, Spock, who evidently had a flimsy grasp of Earth history, was mistaken about "the WWIII era" being a good name for all of the late 20th and early 21st century (thus including the mid-1990s), while the native McCoy knew that this specific sub-era was commonly called "the Eugenics Wars era" instead.

Indeed, this would well fit the spirit of the teaser and beginning of the first act of "Space Seed", where Kirk, Spock and McCoy compete in making bold statements that turn out to be dead wrong the very next moment. Kirk and Spock play that funny one-upmanship game with DY model specs, after exchanging "knowledge" on whether the ship could be of Earth origin or not, and then McCoy joins in with statements about whether there could be crew aboard, whether it could be alive, whether it could be human. Everybody is dead wrong, and everybody else takes perverse delight in this. Spock's "history lesson" would perfectly fit this general bill.

2) Archer in "Cold Station 12" says that the EW had a death toll in the 30-35 million range. Spock in "Bread and Circuses" says WWIII had a death toll of 37 million. But this could be a mere coincidence, as several separate late 20th century and early 21st century wars could plausibly have death tolls ranging in tens of millions.

Moreover, Spock was actually saying that those 37 million dead in WWIII would be the ones "familiar with" what the pseudo-Roman victims of despotism were experiencing. Considering Riker's later statement that WWIII killed 600 million people, Spock's 37 could be a simple subset, the figure of people killed by despotic orders and excluding all battlefield dead. For WWII, Spock gave 11 million, which could well represent the number of people executed in death camps or on the field by the Nazis and the Japanese (and by some minor players) for "reasons" of despotic whim. It can't be the total death toll of that war, though, as even the historically challenged Spock could not be that badly mistaken about numbers, his usual forte.

(For WWI, he gave six million, which is more difficult to explain as despotic whim. Any ideas on which 6-million-strong part of WWI casualties could be thus labeled?)

In the end, then, one could say that there were many wars between WWII and WWIII, one bunch of them being the Eugenics Wars where 30-35 million people died. There could have been other wars running in parallel, forming a continuum - but WWIII could still be a distinct entity, with a sharp beginning and ending in the 2050s.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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I very much doubt there were millions or even hundreds of thousands of Augments. Khan and his generation were considered "young supermen" when they took over; they were a generation created in scientific experimentation, not yet a "production model" but a mere "pilot run". They took their sweet time to mature, and then spent three glorious years ruling the world. There wouldn't really be time to raise any further supermen in that short period of time, even though Khan's ilk would no doubt try and start anyway (explaining the rows upon rows of material on Cold Station 12 shelves).

Timo Saloniemi
Spock: "Of course--your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
Kirk: "Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?"

Selective breeding is not the same thing as genetic engineering. Ricardo Montalban was 46 years old when he played Khan for the first time, if Khan was 46 in 1996 (and the 23 century) that would put his birth in 1950. And Khan doesn't appear to be a first effort or a first generation, selective breeding takes time, multiple generations. The origins of the experiments the resulted in Khan may well have been in the nineteenth century. It seems that the supermen should of existed by the hundreds or thousands. Not all were leaders, the ones with Khan were his lieutenants.

Khan may have been the first to come to power, he ruled from 1992 through 1996, the others seize power simultaneously in 1993.



Ricardo Montalban passed away on January 14, 2009
 
Selective breeding is not the same thing as genetic engineering.

But both have been quoted as the means by which Khan was born. "Space Seed" mentions selective breeding, ST2, DS9 and ENT mention genetic engineering.

The origins of the experiments the resulted in Khan may well have been in the nineteenth century. It seems that the supermen should of existed by the hundreds or thousands.

That would depend on the definition of superman, I guess. There must have been something "extra super" about the group that emerged in the 1990s, so that their enemies could identify each and every one of them, and decide that 80 were missing in the end.

One could decide to, say, hunt down all Nazi party members at the end of WWII, but one could never be certain of the exact number, not down to the level of mere thousands, let alone dozens. One could decide that 80 celebrity Nazis were missing from very high in the well-publicized party apparatus, but that isn't what Khan and his immediate cohorts apparently were like at all.

Khan's ilk would apparently be different, easier game: either freaks openly listed in the Nature article of their creators, then reiterated in the Nobel ceremony, or then a special shock troop secretly raised by a security-conscious government organization that kept excellent records and had every reason to hang on to those records when going after its rebellious former operatives.

"Space Seed" makes it sound much more like an ill-fated but well-intentioned scientific experiment than a secret government plot, though. And let's remember that the wars were known as the Eugenics Wars, yet the people fighting were not (contrary to some novels and other noncanon stuff) known as the Eugenics, but the Augments. So we should think the wars were about eugenics. Which might well mean that eugenics, or selective breeding, was something that was being practiced specifically during those wars, or through those wars, not before them.

Perhaps the people interested in selective breeding were the Augments, who themselves were more a result of fast-proceeding improvements based on direct genetic manipulation of a single generation? Perhaps they attempted to launch selective breeding between 1993 and 1996, which is what the wars were all about?

A nuance only, but one that would explain away the seemingly minuscule number of actual Augments.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So would the ordinary people of the Islamic states have been opposed to Khan ruling them, either directly or indirectly?

And if the Eugenics Wars took place in the 1990s as per "Space Seed", then would we have still had the situation with al-Qaeda, 9/11 and the war in Iraq a decade later? I find it unlikely that Khan would've allowed Saddam Hussein to remain in power; he probably would've had him either executed or imprisoned and installed an Augment as his puppet ruler over the region, as I suspect he did in others.
 
Well, Saddam would have been a product of his society; generic Saddams would have kept on emerging as long as the society survived. Saddam himself was something like the third of his kind, and the second highly successful one.

But as long as I'm going to argue for low numbers of actual Augments, I'll also have to argue for relatively small-scale palace coups, in which the various Khans would need to utilize puppet rulers and other adminstrators of Mundie origin, rather than sacrifice too many of their own superior kind for these menial duties.

Khan was very passionate about having brought ORRDERR!!! to the world. It wouldn't do to have Mundie disorder continue while the Augments held the gilded thrones. A massive reorganizing of the Mundie hierarchy would also have to follow. Hence, I could see lots of "historical" people remaining in power - assuming that they had been part of Trek history to begin with. We don't know if, say, the state of Iraq ever existed in the Trek reality...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Selective breeding is not the same thing as genetic engineering.

But both have been quoted as the means by which Khan was born. "Space Seed" mentions selective breeding, ST2, DS9 and ENT mention genetic engineering.
In the 1960s genetic engineering didn't exist so it would be likely that the only way "supermen" could be made would be through selective breeding. But when ST2 was made, genetic engineering was coming into its infancy and the controversy made it a popular foil for fiction in all forms.
 
Regarding the Eugenics Wars and the real-life Iraq War, it's interesting to note that Tom Clancy's novel Executive Orders, published in 1996, has Saddam assassinated that same year and Iraq and Iran merge to form the United Islamic Republic, which obviously doesn't gel with real world history. But in his final novel, The Teeth of the Tiger, set in the same continuity as the earlier book and occuring around 2005 according to Wikipedia, the characters refer to 9/11 and the Iraq War as having happened.

One thing I'm wondering is, if Khan wasn't such a bad guy when compared to other Augment tyrants, were the normal human populace of the planet entirely justified in setting out to exterminate him? Maybe this was what lead him to be so distrustful of normal humans when he was revived by Kirk, and which ultimately progressed into absolute, insane hatred by the time of TWoK? Then again, Dr Soong does remark in ENT "The Augments" that the super-folk were genetically prone to high aggression, so he may have gone mad anyway.
 
Has anyone mentioned that the roots of Eugenics lie in the late 19th century and early 20th. It was all over the place during the flirtation with the Socialists in the pre-WWII era. Progressives actively promoted it's virtues as a way of stamping out poverty and ills of society. The Nazis are simply a highly recognizable example of this mentality taken to it's logical and disasterious end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
 
I smell a photomanip.
I was right, but then it's a distinctive odor.

KhanManofYear.png
 
Selective breeding is not the same thing as genetic engineering.
But both have been quoted as the means by which Khan was born. "Space Seed" mentions selective breeding, ST2, DS9 and ENT mention genetic engineering.
In the 1960s genetic engineering didn't exist so it would be likely that the only way "supermen" could be made would be through selective breeding. But when ST2 was made, genetic engineering was coming into its infancy and the controversy made it a popular foil for fiction in all forms.
I think we should all just thank our lucky stars the writers of Space Seed didn't use radiation as the mechanism by which the Augments gained their abilities. "KHAN SMASH!"

DestinyCaptain said:
Has anyone mentioned that the roots of Eugenics lie in the late 19th century and early 20th. It was all over the place during the flirtation with the Socialists in the pre-WWII era. Progressives actively promoted it's virtues as a way of stamping out poverty and ills of society. The Nazis are simply a highly recognizable example of this mentality taken to it's logical and disasterious end.

Sure, but the Greek roots literally read "good birth." Given the history of the term, I find it in questionable taste that someone chose to use it, but "Eugenics War" might have been a propaganda label the lamer/faith-born intelligentsia developed to smear their rightful rulers.

EJA said:
And if the Eugenics Wars took place in the 1990s as per "Space Seed", then would we have still had the situation with al-Qaeda, 9/11 and the war in Iraq a decade later? I find it unlikely that Khan would've allowed Saddam Hussein to remain in power; he probably would've had him either executed or imprisoned and installed an Augment as his puppet ruler over the region, as I suspect he did in others.

It's a reach, but no one said Anno Domini/Common Era 1996.:shifty: The official Hindu calendar is more helpful, placing the 1990s in like the 2050s. Doesn't quite match up with World War III, but it's close enough for government work.

Timo said:
I very much doubt there were millions or even hundreds of thousands of Augments. Khan and his generation were considered "young supermen" when they took over; they were a generation created in scientific experimentation, not yet a "production model" but a mere "pilot run".

I would find an Augment population of thousands overrunning 40 nations implausible. They're supermen, not Superman. Clark Kent could take over the world (so long as he preemptively killed Batman :p ), but Khan ain't no Clark Kent. Treble strength and double intelligence are individually terrifying, but collectively insignificant, and I should point out well within the bounds of human diversity as it stands. There walk among us "Augments" today. A Thousand Augment takeover scenario would suggest that all MIT has to do is pump its graduates full of steroids, and the world is theirs.:p

But if there are hundreds of millions, with a shared origin, and a shared culture, crossing national borders, then that's a threat to be feared.
 
Progressives actively promoted it's virtues as a way of stamping out poverty and ills of society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
The eugenics horror factory is better known for forced sterilizations of the poor and the mentally ill in pre-WWII America. The worst was Pre-nazi Germany, where sterilizations were combined court ordered euthiasia of "undesirables". This may have been a direct lead into the holocaust.

German eugenics died witht the nazis, the British Eugenics Society disbanded after the war, the American Eugenics Society simply changed it name.

One thing I'm wondering is, if Khan wasn't such a bad guy when compared to other Augment tyrants, were the normal human populace of the planet entirely justified in setting out to exterminate him?
Khan did make the trains run on time.
 
Any ideas on just how Khan got hold of the S.S. Botany Bay? I once thought his own people could have designed and built it within his empire, but then why have its name in English? It would make more sense to give it a Hindi name if it was constructed in the Indian area. It would be pretty awkward for Khan and 80 Augment followers to get close enough to such a vessel if it was in Europe or America.

Incidentally, I admit I don't really have much of a problem with the idea of the DY-100 series existing in the 1990s of the Trekverse; it's not the only popular current sci-fi franchise to have something like it. The 1970 Doctor Who serial "The Ambassadors of Death" had the British Space Centre launching manned missions to Mars in the early 70s (or 80s, depending on how you view UNIT chronology).
 
My point to what I posted about the history of Eugenics was to make the point that the movement and its facets could quite possibly have spent considerable time and resources towards a common goal. Once achieved, they could have installed these people into prominent positions around the world. The greater good justification that always seems to go hand in hand with Eugenics would likely be the driving force behind it. This also might be the reason that so many would have so little problem with Khan were he to be a real political figure in the world of the late 80's and 90's. The cult of personality is powerful. Witness it's role in our recent elections and politics. I think it likely that a Khan operating on the level similar to our own current president would be a galvanizing figure. The promise of Khan would be huge. Anywho...
 
I would find an Augment population of thousands overrunning 40 nations implausible.

But overrunning 40 nations would be impossible no matter what. Even if People's Republic of China got free nukes and airlift and sealift assistance from Russia, the US, India and Europe, they couldn't overrun 40 nations today - not even with their millions of men.

Taking over 40 nations is completely different. It wouldn't be difficult to find 40 nations today that would be susceptible to a takeover where only the highest political leadership is suddenly replaced. That wouldn't require armies of Augments, and the presence of said armies would probably even be counterproductive. The existing armies of those 40 nations should suffice just fine for the purpose.

Any ideas on just how Khan got hold of the S.S. Botany Bay? I once thought his own people could have designed and built it within his empire, but then why have its name in English?

Well, as our heroes point out, the name sounds like a sarcastic jab, suggesting a prison transport or a ship of the damned. Khan could have chosen it for that very reason.

OTOH, Botany Bay was originally a positive name given to a distant port by a successful explorer hero. Quite possibly, a nation or organization performing solar system exploration or exploitation might use that name for one of its vessels.

Whether this was Khan's nation or organization, or somebody else's, is freely debatable. However, smart Augments would no doubt buy the goodwill of the powerful industrialized nations by giving them new technologies conjured up by their superior minds, while simultaneously applying these technologies in secret to gradually turn their own 40 nations from banana republics to spatial superpowers. Khan or one of his competitors could have provided DY-100 technology to the world, while gaining/retaining access to at least a few finished ships him- or herself.

It would be pretty awkward for Khan and 80 Augment followers to get close enough to such a vessel if it was in Europe or America.

Not if they sent a polite letter beforehand, dressed smartly, and carried sufficiently big bribes in their suitcases.

Oh, and

My point [..]

Agreed completely!

Timo Saloniemi
 
I can't quite see Khan asking an enemy nation out to destroy him to give him one of their most advanced spacecraft with which to escape capture. I find it even more hard to swallow that an enemy nation would willingly agree to his terms, no matter what he offered them in return. No, Khan definitely either stole it or built it himself.
 
Regarding the Eugenics Wars and the real-life Iraq War, it's interesting to note that Tom Clancy's novel Executive Orders, published in 1996, has Saddam assassinated that same year and Iraq and Iran merge to form the United Islamic Republic, which obviously doesn't gel with real world history. But in his final novel, The Teeth of the Tiger, set in the same continuity as the earlier book and occuring around 2005 according to Wikipedia, the characters refer to 9/11 and the Iraq War as having happened.

One thing I'm wondering is, if Khan wasn't such a bad guy when compared to other Augment tyrants, were the normal human populace of the planet entirely justified in setting out to exterminate him? Maybe this was what lead him to be so distrustful of normal humans when he was revived by Kirk, and which ultimately progressed into absolute, insane hatred by the time of TWoK? Then again, Dr Soong does remark in ENT "The Augments" that the super-folk were genetically prone to high aggression, so he may have gone mad anyway.

9/11 Still happened. In the ENT episode "Stormfront" I believe, it shows the end of the Temporal Cold War and the timeline resetting itself while Archer and Daniels look on. One of the images shown as the timeline resets is of the WTC burning from 9/11. It's very quick, but it's there. I think Memory Alpha may have a screencap.

Also, In VOY "Future's End" mentioned before, in the Astronomer Rain Robinson's office in 1996 there is a model of a DY-100 ship. This places the EW in the 1990's CE. It also establishes that the EW took place despite Sterling's interference.
 
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