How characters could have been handled better?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by valkyrie013, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wonder how much of Archer's flaws can be laid at the feet of Bakula, and how much of it was the basic concept of Archer (prior to Bakula being hired), the writers and the directors? From viewing Bakula's other work, he doesn't just play the same basic character over and over.

    My biggest problem with Archer was his "golly gee, we're in space" moments. If this had been heavily toned down, but not completely eliminated, the character would have improved (imho). Archer should have been outside of our star system before, as a officer aboard one of Starfleet's prior generation starships.

    Never saw either as "jerks."

    I don't think that the Enterprise's primary mission was ever to be "the first representatives of humanity."

    Job one was to see what was out there, and find a way to get out from under the Vulcans. It would be easy to see the Human population and political leadership feeling stiffled by the Vulcans.

    From what the crew learned for the first time, it's pretty clear that the Vulcans weren't making any effort to educate the Humans on the state of the galaxy even in the immediate region of Earth.

    It was one of Archer's defining characteristics, you'd be ridding Archer of a important aspect of his early self. What would you replace the "hole" with?

    Porthos would have been better if he had been more the ship's mascot, instead of Archer's personal pet.

    Dump the Vulcan star charts, in favor of Maywhether having something of the guide role we saw with Neelix. Maywhether would know things that weren't in the Starfleet data base, personal stories, anecdotes, rumors he heard from dozens of alien species over the course of his life.

    And make Mayweather thirty years older.

    Disagree, both episodes, especially Dear Doctor, clearly display why the prime directive shouldn't exist.

    Phlox's advise to Archer in Dear Doctor was flawed, withholding a medical treatment because Phlox personally didn't want the society to move in a certain direction.
     
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  2. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    I'd basically make him a wholly different character. I'd eliminate both the Vulcan conflict and the Temporal war from the show and as I wrote in my post about Mayweather I'd have them interact more with human splinter groups scattered about in space as traders, miners, pirates and so forth. So Archer's very concept as a character would be something different.
    I admit I haven't given much thought about what kind of character I'd turn him into instead, beyond "someone less awful/stupid/clueless"
    Maybe someone more traditionally heroic, a very idealistic person who's not above bending the rules when it comes to helping people in trouble.

    As I said, I've never seen Bakula in anything else, and I admitted to the posibility that he might have done better with better writing.


    If you are the first official vessel of a planet/organization going into space and meeting people you inevitably become the first official representatives of said planet/organization, whether that's your primary mission or not.
     
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  3. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The idea of a somewhat older wizened space boomer is interesting. Shove T'pol's know it all out the airlock and replace it with his/her thing of being out here already, maybe not this far, but encountering the various species already, and like the Kretasians, knowing there a bunch of Prigs and not bring the dog down or insult them, have him/her just tear into a telarite on there first meeting.
    Actually that would make a great Captain character instead of Archer's golly gee whiz stuff.
     
  4. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

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    My first instinct was to say make Mayweather an old non-com, drafted in from the ECS for the mission, but then I thought about having all that experience and knowledge wrapped up in the hot young buck would work better, showing that he already had 20+ years experience in space as it was where he was born and had spent his life learning more than most of the others--whilst Archer was flying test ships and getting by on nepotism, Mayweather was living/working in deep space.
     
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  5. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I disagree, if this were the case then Archer's ship compliment would have included a few civilian diplomats, trained in the field, experienced specialists.

    Archer (blindingly obvious) knew nothing about meeting new species, there's no evidence he was even lightly briefed on the subject. He was making it up as he went, and often getting it wrong.

    He was a explorer, his senior officers were specialists in engineering, tactics, communication, ships operations, We find out in later seasons that there are aliens on Earth, originally none were supposed to be on the ship, even though they would be assets in meeting other aliens.

    The only officer who would be usefully in a first contact situation was Hoshi.

    Again, not apparently intended to be representing Earth to the galaxy.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Unless Tucker is being sarcastic in "A Night in Sickbay" Archer is supposedly a trained diplomat:
    TUCKER: Their components are metallurgically sound, dependable. We could look for six months and not find anything half as compatible. You're a trained diplomat. Take the high road. There's got to be some way you can kiss and make up.

    Unfortunately, they don't utilize that skill set at all. Because, Archer is not good at it.
     
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  7. Oddish

    Oddish Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    In "A Night in Sickbay", Archer shows the maturity level of an angry 9-year-old.
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't change the fact that Archer is reported to be a "trained diplomat" and would be encountering alien species and thus, representative of Starfleet, if not of Earth and humanity. Archer failing at diplomacy is just bad writing.
     
  9. Oddish

    Oddish Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    That whole episode was bad writing, and it's saved only by the fact that it's so ridiculously funny. It's like "Lower Decks" but with bats and dogs instead of ensigns.
     
  10. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Should have had a contact officer, actually that would have been a good job of Hoshi, someone who has studied EVERY species that is known, what there customs are, languages, etc. A complete utter space NERD! Then you wouldn't have a bunch of woops..
    She "kind of" had this job, but when she first started she didn't know anything of other species except languages.

    Archer SHOULD have been this person, someone who knew of all the local species, especially in the DIRECTION that they were going to go, which would have been planned out months ahead. Go galactic west, here's all the species you will probably run in to, heres a list, there all the information we have on them, here are a list of known hostile, here's a list of ones you can probably trust. Here's samples of there languages, all in the database. Now Study Captain!!
     
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  11. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, it's owing to Archer in fact not being a trained diplomat. Trip said he was a train diplomat, and Hoshi said Trip learn warp drive by working on outboard motors.

    Expression of humor, nothing more.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The context does not imply humor. :vulcan:
     
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  13. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    YMMV
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Clearly.
     
  15. somebuddyx

    somebuddyx Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe he's a trained diplomat with a temper who doesn't want to admit he made a mistake, pissed off some aliens and almost killed his dog. Trip sounds like's he's ribbing Archer in that scene but it could go either way.
     
  16. Oddish

    Oddish Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    Ironically, the best handling of the Kreetasians I saw was done my Ens. Mayweather, in Vox Sola. He simply, honestly explained that his people had no idea what they had done that was offensive. When they explained, he apologized. Wow. What a concept.
     
  17. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    That would explain a lot, wouldn't it?
     
  18. Oddish

    Oddish Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    Maybe they should have made Mayweather captain instead. He had spent his whole life in space, he knew how to apologize, and I don't think he ever was seen actually screwing anything up in four years.
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Jolly Old Warrior Premium Member

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    Who?
     
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  20. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well we know plenty of diplomats (most in Tos) that were all high and mighty and needing 2 ships to transport there Ego.
    Like in politics, or corporate board rooms most of the leaders are some level of narcissists and a low level sociopath, which make the head string and go geters not taking no for an answer.
    A ship captain? Look at lower decks, captain Freeman is Screaming "get me off this tugboat im better than this assignment!"

    Archer is headstrong and my way or the highway and gets into a huff when it doesn't go his way.

    Now Starfleet it seems is realtivly new, and like today's space force is a bunch of transfers from other places. Archer was a test pilot that transfered over and was in the running for captain. And yes nepotism, should have had freighter captain as the Nx first captain but choose a nyophite who probably haven't been far out of the system.. But ended up okay.
     
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