How can you praise this movie and bash VOY, ENT and Nemesis?

[neozeks]

But why, what's so different in St09 in comparison to Nemesis? And i mean a little more detailed, you gave detailed descriptions for everything except the new movie.

1. Pulling the audience in...

Wow, dude, i said a little more detailed and you write a whole review
And, surprisingly, i agree with many of those things. I actually didn't want to imply NEM was equivalent to St09, i do believe NEM is the worst Trek movie ever and ST09 is better than NEM, just not as much better.

 

[Trekker4747]

I wouldn't rank ST09 as the best, it comes in third for me under FC and TWK respectively. Worst for me are (from "best" to worst) are TMP, Nemesis and Final Frontier.

(For what it's worth, TVH, TUC, TSFS and Generations fill out the gap.)

 

[neozeks]

No, this was pretty well a constant throughout the entire franchise. The DS9 Baseball episode, anyone?

Yeah, i didn't like it then either. Though i've seen people complain about it only in the case of ENT.

Unless you are referring to the very, very end, I don’t see this at all. The entire mood of the movie shifted after the destruction of Vulcan.

Well, here i'll have strongly to disagree. We have the grief of two Spocks but too little from anyone else. And i don't mean just the end, i mean useless monsters, Scotty's jar-jar, him beaming into a tube and such.

Again, your opinion. I thought Kirk made a huge change from the beginning to the end.

All right. Explain how you saw his journey.

Kim never getting promoted never bothered me. Kirk getting promoted didn’t bother me. In fact, they have entire threads devoted to the discussion of Kirk getting promoted, with several reasonable reasons listed. For example, the kid took command and saved all of the Federation. Nothing big. Aren’t you bothered by anyone else? Ships being sent lots of cadets to work? Other cadets currently in the academy having real ranks? Uhura? McCoy?

Yeah, i'm bothered by that too, this is just the most obvious moment, because it was just so unbelievable and smacked of lazy writing IMO. (ok, that's for the other thread)

Find me a movie or TV show that lacks these.

Yeah, but of this magnitude? Actually, i think this, besides the unoriginality of it all, is my main gripe with the movie. Some can view it as fun even if the plot is holey, i can't.

Addressed earlier in the thread.

Ah, but not the second part of it. That it was just a too easy, pull out of your hat solution, again IMO lazy writing.

Ok, I’ll do startrekwatcher’s too in a second. Find me a movie or TV show that doesn’t have clichés. The issue is when they’re abused… say, in every episode or multiple times in the episode. You’re right, time travel wasn’t needed in this case. But do you know why it was used this time? To throw the fans a bone. This way, the writers could do whatever they wanted with fewer pissy fans getting on their case. And I thought it was done well.

But the problem is the whole movie is cliche, especially compared to previous movies, when it claimed it was something different - the villain, the story of the hero, the way they defeat him, all seen before a hundred times.

“Superfluous striptease?” really? Again, it’s a difference between a 2 minute bit in a movie and a series long thing.

Yeah, but its 2 minutes in a 2 hour movie compared to a few scenes in the whole series.

When you oversimplify it that much, yeah you can find something that matches. The complaints against VOY were literally that they switched names and did the exact same story.

But in both cases it's a sign of unoriginality, maybe they were just better in hiding it in ST09.

Again, you’re picking on opinions. You don’t think that ST09 was well written. That doesn’t make it fact

Nope, but we're all just discussing opinions anyways...

Emphasis mine. You're assuming through extension that people disliked the listed shows and movies for the same reasons you did.

Nope, that's why i said 'I'. I see the contradiction, you're there to prove me there isn't one.

Anyway, i give up, i'm burned and my bed is looking awfully comfy... Thanks for the replies, keep the discussion going...

 

[pookha]

Ds9 had low ratings as well so you do got to consider Ds9 in the equation. Basically your asking why this movie was more successful than all the spin-offs and movies that came after TNG.

I simply think it boils down to the fact that people like the new versions of the TOS crew and the movie had a sense of fun to it. It didn't get bogged down in technobabble or politics. It was a nice fun adventure story. Berman trek could take itself to serious, always afraid to break the Roddenberry rules or look hokey. It forgot how to have fun. Another thing is that this movie works as a action movie for the most part. Action-adventure was not a strength of any of the 24th century shows. Even Ds9 wasn't great in this regards. Ds9 had some good ship battles and but for the most part Ds9 worked best when it was dealing with the characters doing something other than shooting things with phasers. All the modern Trek's were like this. The problem is action-adventure should have it's place in Trek. I want drama but when the action happens I don't want to fall asleep.

To me this movie sort of represents what Trek should be about. Fun characters,some dark moments or comments on the human condition so as the movie is more than just fluff and fun action scenes with a little comedy tossed in. Star Trek should never treated like a serious drama and it should never be treated like a mindless action-adventure serious. It should be a combination of both of those things IMO.

Jason

Okay, fun, but exactly what kind of fun - bar brawling, simple slapstick, swolen hands, Scotty in a tube? How does that mesh with a genocide of a civilization? How can you mix that?
I hope you're not trying to say the Dominion War was action that makes you fall asleep?
Your last paragraph pretty much well describes, say, First Contact. That movie had a good balance. This one was much too tilted to the mindless adventure, and even that wasn't exceptional IMHO.

did you ever watch tos.
even in some of the most grim episodes there were lighter moments,
and i guess you never watched mash.

and it also seems as far as i can tell you didnt acknoldge what was said about the movie is far from the first time vulcans were seen as racist.


i also believe kirk evolved as a character.
you could see him becoming more and mature as the movie progressed.
this dosnt mean he wont tell an occasional joke or have a light hearthed moment.
shatner's kirk was that way too.

we see him doing something shatner's kirk did.. have a quick confab with his senior officers to get suggestions and then come to a decsion.

 

[Trekker4747]

Is it really a strip-tease when a woman takes off her skirt and blouse in her own room? Doesn't do it slowly, doesn't do it seductively, but she just peels it off like she's getting ready to hop in the shower?

Kirk ripping open the flap of his unifrorm after the Klingons leave the ship in TUC is more of a "striptease" than what Uhura does in this movie!

And of course, TOS never not once in all of its movies and TV episodes used sex or titilation.

NEVER.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Picard ripping open the flap of his unifrorm after the Klingons leave the ship in TUC is more of a "striptease" than what Uhura does in this movie!

Picard? TUC?

CANON VIOLATION!

 

[Trekker4747]

Picard ripping open the flap of his unifrorm after the Klingons leave the ship in TUC is more of a "striptease" than what Uhura does in this movie!

Picard? TUC?

CANON VIOLATION!

Fuck.

Oh, and for the record:

Wow, dude, i said a little more detailed and you write a whole review

You asked.

 

[indranee]

I, of course, loved ENT, so I'm safe there!

hmm. VOY: loved the premise. hated the execution.

NEM: speaks for itself. I mean, 43 frickin' million bucks?

I don't think any of us NEM bashers have to apologize for any of THAT.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Enterprise had a whole season plus some to deal with people’s reactions. ST09 had 2 hours to deal with reactions and get on with the story.

I was specifically talking about the crew's reactions in "The Expanse". Also your "there was only two hours to deal with reactions" falls flat. Most films are two hours and yet they manage to deal with reactions. And you also pointed out another problem with the film--it tried to do way too much for a 2 hour film.

Future guy literally did nothing but stand around and talk, and he literally disappeared when they were done with him. Nero was a real villain. Maybe not a well done one, but he was at least a villain.

I really don't see much of a difference-both were plot devices.

“Superfluous striptease?” really? Again, it’s a difference between a 2 minute bit in a movie and a series long thing.

YOu make it sound as if ENT had rubdowns every episode. It was featured a few times in season one and maybe once in season two. It didn't bother me on ENT and Uhura's undressing didn't either.

Again, you’re picking on opinions. You don’t think that ST09 was well written. That doesn’t make it fact

No, it doesn't make it any more a fact than those that think it is the best film ever. I just articulated my issues with the film. Afterall, this is a discussion board so I had just assumed that people come here to read varying opinions. Otherwise why bother coming here? If one wants to not have their views challnged and want to continue to be unaware of other views then they should just stay off the internet.

People complained about stunt casting like with Brent Spiner or the rumor of Shatner in ENT yet Nimoy isn't?!?

Spiner played a different character than what he’s known for, as Shatner would have. Nimoy played his original character and his character had a real something to do with the story.

Spiner, the Borg, Shatner, Nimoy were all used as a ratings/box office ploy. As for Nimoy having something to do in the film--yes he was a plot device that provided exposition. I enjoyed seeing Nimoy but I thought his presence could have been better handled.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

the ruling members who are basically a small part of the population that enslaved his Reman buddies

We don't know whether the Romulan civilian population were pro Reman slavery or not. You didn't really want the whole movie to be concerned with Romulan politics, did you?

Actually I was going more towards Shinzon using or at least trying to use the Scimitar's deathray on Romulus.

 

[Broccoli]

You are really reaching here trying to make a character scene out of a titty shot.

The scrubdowns in ENT were excuses to combine boring exposition conversation between the characters with some visually alluring, gratuitous non-sexual sexuality. The intent behind those scenes was to have sex appeal disguised as a practical necessity in that age -- the characters were supposed to be just going about their business while the audience got an eyeful. But it really made no sense at all. If you're worried about bringing pathogens back from the planet's surface, some disinfectant and UV light would be like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. In reality, you'd either need to go down there in full biohazard suits, or go through a decon sequence like the one in the novel The Andromeda Strain. Not just some scrubby gel that only gets applied to the parts your modest-for-television underwear doesn't cover.

I liked the movie, but this is a very weak argument. There was no reason for Uhura to strip down to her undies in order to give that information. None at all. Did she need to be near-naked to hear Kirk under the bed? I don't think so. Saying that the ENT decon scene in the pilot is trying to shove sex when it isn't needed is stupid considering the ST09 scene is doing the exact same thing. Lets call a spade a spade.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think Uhura's dis-robing and the Enterprise goo-rubbing scene are very, very different things.

I mean, can you really comapre a few quick shots of a woman in her underwear spouting off dialgoue to minutes-long scenes of two characters rubbing each-other with Space KY interspersed with gratuituous body shots?

Watch the decon scene in "Broken Bow" and tell me that that is anything remotely CLOSE to being the same thing as the four seconds we get of Uhura in her rather pedestrian-looking underwear.

Further, we're comparing a woman getting out of her work clothes in her own bedroom to two adults supposedly involved in a medical/decontamination procedure. A decon procedure that seems incomplete and silly.

"Rub your self down with this. Don't bother trying to get everywhere on your body, or worry about your hair. Oh, and have the hunky mostly-naked guy there sporting wood rub you down with this jelly goo too."

vs.

"I just got off work and I'm going to take off my clothes and hop in the shower."

Yeeeeah.

 

[Qonos]

You are really reaching here trying to make a character scene out of a titty shot.

The scrubdowns in ENT were excuses to combine boring exposition conversation between the characters with some visually alluring, gratuitous non-sexual sexuality. The intent behind those scenes was to have sex appeal disguised as a practical necessity in that age -- the characters were supposed to be just going about their business while the audience got an eyeful. But it really made no sense at all. If you're worried about bringing pathogens back from the planet's surface, some disinfectant and UV light would be like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. In reality, you'd either need to go down there in full biohazard suits, or go through a decon sequence like the one in the novel The Andromeda Strain. Not just some scrubby gel that only gets applied to the parts your modest-for-television underwear doesn't cover.

I liked the movie, but this is a very weak argument. There was no reason for Uhura to strip down to her undies in order to give that information. None at all. Did she need to be near-naked to hear Kirk under the bed? I don't think so. Saying that the ENT decon scene in the pilot is trying to shove sex when it isn't needed is stupid considering the ST09 scene is doing the exact same thing. Lets call a spade a spade.

So you stay in your same sweaty clothes after your shift? You walk around stinking of sweat all day? Come on the "Oh Noes Uhura was Half-Naked" thing is getting old. SHE WAS IN HER ROOM.. I strip down to my undies (Or even farther) When I'm in my room so really what is the problem in the way they handled the Uhura scene.. I'm sorry the outrage to the scene is rediculous and needs to be gotten over. It's not like you saw anything. Hell it was tamer than a victoria's secret ad.

 

[Therin of Andor]

"... and hope in the shower."

Your typo was funnier!

 

[Jeri]

Why doesn't anyone notice that Kirk is in his underwear, too? I certainly did. He has less clothes on than Uhura.

 

[Trekker4747]

Why doesn't anyone notice that Kirk is in his underwear, too? I certainly did. He has less clothes on than Uhura.

Or the much more central to the scene, and much more objectified, woman in fancy bikini lingere splayed out on the bed in a Playboy pose.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Why doesn't anyone notice that Kirk is in his underwear, too? I certainly did. He has less clothes on than Uhura.

I did too and I didn't mind it. Frankly I don't mind gratuitous T&A. I only mentioned the Uhura undressing thing as something that many don't seem to mind but ranted day and night on with the decon scene on ENT.

 

[Trekker4747]

Why doesn't anyone notice that Kirk is in his underwear, too? I certainly did. He has less clothes on than Uhura.

I did too and I didn't mind it. Frankly I don't mind gratuitous T&A. I only mentioned the Uhura undressing thing as something that many don't seem to mind but ranted day and night on with the decon scene on ENT.

Because the decon stuff in Enterprise was gratuitous and only done for titliation and nothing more. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with titliation. But the titilation in it was shitty, cheap, and poor. It's something you'd see on Cinemax at 3 am circa 1994.

A few quick shots of Uhura taking off her work clothes in her own dammed bedroom is not the same thing as two people in a "decon" room rubbing each other down with "decon gel" for several minues of screen time ALL of which is spent FOCUSING on the people rubbing each other with, come on let's get real here, KY Jelly. Intercut with body shots. "Oooo. T'Pol gels down her mid-riff and slides under the rim of her jogging shorts, Trip gently teases the tips of her ears."

Come on. The two are worlds apart.

 

[Qonos]

Why doesn't anyone notice that Kirk is in his underwear, too? I certainly did. He has less clothes on than Uhura.

I did too and I didn't mind it. Frankly I don't mind gratuitous T&A. I only mentioned the Uhura undressing thing as something that many don't seem to mind but ranted day and night on with the decon scene on ENT.

well I never had that particular beef w ent

 

[Kane_Steel]

Voy, Ent and Nemesis all failed on characters.


Trek 2009 got the characters perfect.