How can the original timeline still exist?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by EJA, Dec 10, 2009.

  1. EJA

    EJA Fleet Captain

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    Roberto Orci has said that though Nero created an entirely new timeline when he arrived in the 23rd century on the Narada, the original universe of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY still exists. Unfortunately, when considering everything that Trek has said about time travel in prior films and series, this doesn't really work. Watch "The City on the Edge of Forever." Watch Star Trek: First Contact. Watch DS9's "Past Tense." Watch the whole Temporal Cold War saga in ENT. There are other examples, but in all those I can think of, it was repeatedly stated that travelling into the past and altering events does not cause the existing universe to give birth to new ones, but changes that universe. Using this system of logic, the old universe can no longer exist; the new version is that same reality, only altered.

    Orci has also cited the TNG episode "Parallels" for why the new universe and the old one can coexist. But the multiple alternate realities seen in that episode had nothing to do with time travel, they were ALWAYS different from the "prime" reality. The only way the original timeline could still exist is if the new one was NOT created by Nero and Spock Prime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2009
  2. Islander

    Islander Commodore Commodore

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    However, this alternated timeline was created due to events that occured in the original timeline, events that are unlikely to repeat themselves given the head warning this story provides. So the alternate reality cannot exist without the old one and, thus, the original one. still exists. In fact, since it only exist after the events described that occured after Nemesis, the this timeline actual happens after nemesis as well chronologically. It's only the dates that are changed. So if pine's Kirk could travel back in time, he could go to meet Picard, if he goes back long enough...
     
  3. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Does it matter? This whole issue strike me as kind of like arguing how many Klingons can dance on a head of a pin.

    The old timeline is now a beloved part of tv history, not a going concern anymore, at least as far as movies and television go. On a practical level, we're not going to see it again, so it doesn't really matter if it still exists or not.
     
  4. Flake

    Flake Commodore Commodore

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    Spock came from that universe and remembers all of its events, events that have caused the new universe to exist. Without Spock existing in the prime universe there would be no Jellyfish/Red Matter accident and therefore no alternate timeline. If the prime universe is somehow erased then how can Spock be flung back in time in the first place?
     
  5. EJA

    EJA Fleet Captain

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  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    After you're done re-watching Parallels (which clearly shows the alternate realities forking at different points, not from some common origin) I recommend watching Back to the Future 2. :)
     
  7. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The only explanation that makes any kind of sense is if Nero traveled back in time and dimension hopped.
     
  8. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Also, LOL at that guy saying that Trek XI's timeline is one that no-one cares about.

    So true.
     
  9. EJA

    EJA Fleet Captain

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    Here's an idea: When Nero and Spock Prime fell through the black hole in 2387, they didn't just emerge in the past, they emerged in the past of a universe that had already diverged from their own. Similar to what happened with the 23rd century USS Defiant, which passed into the 22nd century of the Mirror Universe. Of course the question with this hypothesis is, if the destruction of the Kelvin didn't cause the divergence, what did?
     
  10. snakespeare

    snakespeare Commander Red Shirt

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    All the more reason why the "new timeline" must be viewed as a temporal anomoly that needs to be corrected. I predict that XIII will end with a temporal repair job that restores Vulcan.

    I don't believe it is necessary to screw up the timeline to reboot Star Trek. Having Orion women as officers? That's rebooting. Uhuru kissing Spock? That's rebooting.

    Timeline paradoxes are not for rebooting. Paradoxes create plots, but have to resolve. That's the way people are. It's like dissonance in music. It makes the listener desire consonance. Temporal anomolies are dissonant and people need them to resolve.

    They blew up Vulcan. They could have picked any planet, but they chose Vulcan. That's because we like Vulcans. They killed Kirk's father. It was all done ny a tempral anomoly. This is scientifiction. Temporal anomolies are not allowed to stand.

    Just be patient. It will be a big story arc over several movies.
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    The Trek XI reality is not an anomaly that needs to be "corrected." Vulcan still exists in the Prime reality. The only anomaly in that reality is Spock Prime, and since he's already contaminated the timeline, there isn't much point in, ahem, removing him.

    I prefer to think that the Trek XI reality always existed, just like the Mirror Universe, or all the other realities we saw in "Parallels." It's easier than saying Nero and Spock created a completely new reality that just diverged from the original when they traveled through the black hole, since there were already some discrepancies (technology and stardates, for example).
     
  12. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Will this ever end? :lol:
     
  13. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Although the movie tells us different, if you wanted to rationalise inconsistencies that's how you'd do it.

    The problem I have is that outside of the initial novelty, I couldn't give a shit about mirror universes. The movie tells us that we're watching mirror versions of these characters and a part of me is sat there going "When are we going to cut back to what's happening in the 'real' universe?"
     
  14. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    It's still around. When Nero came through, he opened a new branch that leads to this timelime. Just cause this one exists, does not mean the other does not.

    Stop using Back to the Future as a reference for time travel and timelines. :p
     
  15. Valin

    Valin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    All the Trek timelines and parallel universes are fictional, so it doesn't really matter. The TV shows, movies, books, etc all still exist, whether they contradict each other or not.
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    They say it's an alternate reality in the movie.

    I don't really care about rationalizing inconsistencies. I'm not that kind of Trek fan.
     
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I think this movie needed a line about temporal mechanics giving someone a headache. That way, it doesn't matter if we don't understand it because neither do the characters! :p
     
  18. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    If the writers say so, its true. (Or as true as any piece of fiction can be). Its really that simple.
     
  20. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Orci said in an interview that time travel in this movie is a departure from all other time travel explanations in Star Trek.

    The Orci interview is in the trekmovie.com archives around early May, most likely.