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How about a respectful religious vs non-religious discussion?

The reality is no matter what anyone else writes/ says/signs it's most unlikely that anyone will change the mind of another when it comes to politics or religion.

This is a sentiment I see with alarming frequency. Have that many people really never had their opinions changed by internet discussions? I've had both political and religious opinions changed by my interactions on various forums over the years and I'd likely be a very different person otherwise.
 
This is a sentiment I see with alarming frequency. Have that many people really never had their opinions changed by internet discussions? I've had both political and religious opinions changed by my interactions on various forums over the years and I'd likely be a very different person otherwise.
When I joined this board back in 2002, I was a straight, conservative, devout fundamentalist Christian, with all of the social views that entailed. I am now a pansexual, liberal, feminist, and atheist. In some cases, the debates helped me see other points of view, and I learned new ways of thinking. In other cases, there were discussions that taught me to accept who I really was, and to embrace it. If 2002 me saw 2016 me, he would freak out, but this is who I am, and I can attribute a fair portion of it to my willingness to listen and learn. That requires engaging in a free exchange of ideas with others.
 
This is a sentiment I see with alarming frequency. Have that many people really never had their opinions changed by internet discussions? I've had both political and religious opinions changed by my interactions on various forums over the years and I'd likely be a very different person otherwise.

I have changed my mind by taking in others' opinions in forums. It's a really healthy thing to do. I find however, that religion and politics are topics where people feel really strongly about their position. There positions are, of course, valid and formed by life experiences. My reaction to Coloratura's post has left me wanting to hear more of her story.

I have enough of my own silly beliefs*, I do not desire to share any of yours, especially by force of law. If this is an agenda, then I have one.

I have found, over time, that there is a thing I would call an "evangelical atheist." I don't like those guys, either. A chunk of them are just "I am evah so edgy" trolls out to upset whoever they can, and the rest are the smuggest kind of schmucks you can come across.


I generally only talk about my belief system if someone else directly questions me, or brings it up as a negative. I'm not one of those jerkass nonbelievers who feels he has to make a big deal out of it when the religious people in the family say a simple grace before a meal they prepared - Hey, I'm getting free food, here. OTOH, if one of them starts going on about how evolution/science is a lie and/or the space program is worthless... well, have you ever seen a howitzer fire at a cow at point-blank range? Me neither, but I imagine it's something like that.



*For instance, the more I know about how my local sports teams are faring, the worse they do. I had no idea the Penguins made it to the Stanley Cup.
I have enough of my own silly beliefs*, I do not desire to share any of yours, especially by force of law. If this is an agenda, then I have one.

I have found, over time, that there is a thing I would call an "evangelical atheist." I don't like those guys, either. A chunk of them are just "I am evah so edgy" trolls out to upset whoever they can, and the rest are the smuggest kind of schmucks you can come across.

I generally only talk about my belief system if someone else directly questions me, or brings it up as a negative. I'm not one of those jerkass nonbelievers who feels he has to make a big deal out of it when the religious people in the family say a simple grace before a meal they prepared - Hey, I'm getting free food, here. OTOH, if one of them starts going on about how evolution/science is a lie and/or the space program is worthless... well, have you ever seen a howitzer fire at a cow at point-blank range? Me neither, but I imagine it's something like that.



*For instance, the more I know about how my local sports teams are faring, the worse they do. I had no idea the Penguins made it to the Stanley Cup.
 
Doom Shepherd, "Evengelical Atheist" is a very good description of some of hardliners who are constantly harping on about their non-belief. I've been calling them "born again atheists" but they can go further than that because some do try and convince you without regard to time and place. For example, vilifying believers at a Christening or funeral within the walls of a church. If they were respectful they would wait until they were outside the church. It's rather like insulting a host in their own home.
 
I have changed my mind by taking in others' opinions in forums. It's a really healthy thing to do. I find however, that religion and politics are topics where people feel really strongly about their position. There positions are, of course, valid and formed by life experiences. My reaction to Coloratura's post has left me wanting to hear more of her story.
I do want to note something before we begin that discussion. I identify as cisgender male, so you don't have to refer to me as she if you don't wish to do so. If you do, I'm fine with that, too, and I'd take it as a compliment. In short, I have no requirements on how I am addressed. :)
 
When I joined this board back in 2002, I was a straight, conservative, devout fundamentalist Christian, with all of the social views that entailed. I am now a pansexual, liberal, feminist, and atheist. In some cases, the debates helped me see other points of view, and I learned new ways of thinking. In other cases, there were discussions that taught me to accept who I really was, and to embrace it. If 2002 me saw 2016 me, he would freak out, but this is who I am, and I can attribute a fair portion of it to my willingness to listen and learn. That requires engaging in a free exchange of ideas with others.

I do want to note something before we begin that discussion. I identify as cisgender male, so you don't have to refer to me as she if you don't wish to do so. If you do, I'm fine with that, too, and I'd take it as a compliment. In short, I have no requirements on how I am addressed. :)

In the first post it looks almost like you turned from one stereotype into another.
But that second post. You are joking? Right?
 
In the first post it looks almost like you turned from one stereotype into another.
But that second post. You are joking? Right?
Joking about what? No, I'm cisgender male, and identify as such. It's just that if I'm mistaken for being female, it's no skin off my nose. I'll answer to he, she, they, you, it doesn't matter to me. Gender distinctions aren't something I really care much about, being pansexual and all.

As for the first post, I was raised a fundamentalist Christian. I even became an Evangelical minister as soon as I turned 18. There were parts of myself that I had denied for years, because I had been taught that such things were evil, that they were wrong, that the devil was trying to tempt me into rebuking God's divine creation in favor of man's perversion.

When I was in middle school, I had a crush on a boy who sat 3 desks in front of mine. I had daydreams about him, I wrote stories to myself about how I would approach him and talk to him, to see if he liked me in that way, too. As I got older, I became more fearful of the reaction from my family should those personal feelings ever get out, so I shoved them deep down, and embraced my faith wholly.

(I'll do this in parts since I keep having to step away from the computer.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(I'll continue in this one so I don't have to keep editing the previous post.)

While I could go into my growth and development as a Christian, suffice to say I read the Bible dozens of times, committing verses to memory, and working to gain a comprehensive understanding of the history and context in which the Bible was written. I wanted to be certain what I knew was correct, and wasn't just something that "felt" right. I had long been skeptical of people who made up directives from the Bible in order to make a point about why you needed to send them money, and why God didn't like that black couple who lived on the corner. To me that was worse than being of a different faith, it was creating false doctrine, and I wouldn't stand for it.

Of course, over time, as I studied the Bible I started to weigh questions against it, and in doing so, began to weigh questions against my own beliefs. That started the journey that eventually lead to my atheism, believe it or not. Along the way, as I studied my own faith and what I really thought I knew, ideas and perceptions began to fall away as I discovered they were never really there, and that some parts of my faith felt like smoke and mirrors. You should know that when I study something, I scrutinize it from every angle, and I test it until it fails. My understanding of how things work constantly evolves because of that nature, and of course a fundamentalist Christian faith wasn't going to stand up to that level of scrutiny. So as I learned more and more about what I truly believed, and the facts behind the people I thought I knew, I began to moderate.

By late 2002 (3 years after I graduated high school), I was still fundamentalist, but some of the stricter beliefs had fallen away. Then I joined TrekBBS. Suddenly, I was meeting people whom I had never interacted with before, including a beautifully sweet gay man. Right down in TNZ, we discussed all manner of belief:; political, social, spiritual, and over time I began to see some things in different ways. My understanding of gay people began to morph into knowledge based on the idea exchanges I had been engaging in for several years up to that point. I began to study the Bible once more, looking for key passages that explained aspects of my faith that no longer made sense, and I found nothing to support them. Nothing. Everything I had been taught, everything I had chosen to believe, had been essentially made from whole cloth and passed on to me as fact, and these were things dear to me so they hadn't been included in that scrutiny up to that point. Well now they were under the microscope, too, and just as readily, I found they couldn't withstand the examination.

I have long held the belief that I would rather know the truth, no matter how unpleasant or painful, than believe a comforting lie. This applies to everything, and especially, at the time, my faith. These so-called pillars of morality that I had contained within me for decades were now shown to be illusions, and so that tower fell. More towers of faith began to fall, until in 2005, I realized that I was no longer a fundamentalist Christian. I was, at best, moderate, and even that was shaky. My political views had gone from ultra-conservative (voted for G.W. Bush in 2000), to iffy (John Kerry in 2004), to outright liberal (Obama in 2008). I had become more liberal with each passing year, and all as a part of my studies. It was around 2008, in fact, that I realized my ethics were being driven by my own personal morality, and realizing the power and strength I had within, I let go of the rigidity of religion as a necessity for morality.

In 2008, I had become a Christian Mystic. That is someone who follows the general spirituality of Christianity, but few of the demanding requirements. It was also in 2008 that I had my dark night of the soul, and doubted my faith as a whole. That would go on, back and forth, for some time until, like the snapping of a rubber band, I just no longer had the faith. I had come to the conclusion it was unnecessary at that point, that I had been without it for a long time anyway, and so I embraced my agnosticism. I wasn't ready to say there was no God, but I was willing to accept that I no longer knew for certain.

It was also around then that I finally accepted who and what I was. Since 2006, I had believed that being gay wasn't a sin, but I still wouldn't accept my own personal feelings because I didn't want to be biased against myself as accepting a comforting lie (I'm really difficult on myself). Over time, I realized my feelings were real, they were authentic, and that I knew my whole life had contained them, and so I accepted that I was pansexual (it means I don't consider gender a determining factor regarding whom I fall in love with). I also began to wear away at my own personal gender biases, because I had long grown tired of living by them when I didn't even like them. I was told as a child that boys liked one thing, and girls liked another, and that's the way it was.

The thing is, it wasn't that way for me. I liked all kinds of things, things that some felt were only for girls. While I never had trouble understanding I was male, and accepted that as part of my identity, I also didn't reject the idea that parts of my mind, pieces of thought and emotion, were most decidedly female. I believe everyone has this to some degree, great or small, and so I embraced that in myself. I'm a feminist, so to me being compared to a girl isn't an insult at all, but just one more accepting aspect of who I am. I am me. It took many years for me to come to terms with that, but it is the truth.

Sorry if I bored any of you with that. I tried not to ramble.
 
Joking about what? No, I'm cisgender male, and identify as such. It's just that if I'm mistaken for being female, it's no skin off my nose. I'll answer to he, she, they, you, it doesn't matter to me. Gender distinctions aren't something I really care much about, being pansexual and all.

Your post read so much like a parody of the stereotypical tumlr-ite identitarian statement of the preferred pronouns and gender-identity and all that jazz, that it seemed like you were poking fun at those "militant" atheist who can't but help tell everyone that they are atheist no matter the context or circumstance.
Turns out you were serious. That puts you in that same camp.

Your story about turning into an atheist is in line with many US atheist's stories online. Where they fall from one extreme into the other and pursue both in the same religious manner and fill the void that's left by the faith with something else.
 
(I'll continue in this one so I don't have to keep editing the previous post.)

While I could go into my growth and development as a Christian, suffice to say I read the Bible dozens of times, committing verses to memory, and working to gain a comprehensive understanding of the history and context in which the Bible was written. I wanted to be certain what I knew was correct, and wasn't just something that "felt" right. I had long been skeptical of people who made up directives from the Bible in order to make a point about why you needed to send them money, and why God didn't like that black couple who lived on the corner. To me that was worse than being of a different faith, it was creating false doctrine, and I wouldn't stand for it.

Of course, over time, as I studied the Bible I started to weigh questions against it, and in doing so, began to weigh questions against my own beliefs. That started the journey that eventually lead to my atheism, believe it or not. Along the way, as I studied my own faith and what I really thought I knew, ideas and perceptions began to fall away as I discovered they were never really there, and that some parts of my faith felt like smoke and mirrors. You should know that when I study something, I scrutinize it from every angle, and I test it until it fails. My understanding of how things work constantly evolves because of that nature, and of course a fundamentalist Christian faith wasn't going to stand up to that level of scrutiny. So as I learned more and more about what I truly believed, and the facts behind the people I thought I knew, I began to moderate.

By late 2002 (3 years after I graduated high school), I was still fundamentalist, but some of the stricter beliefs had fallen away. Then I joined TrekBBS. Suddenly, I was meeting people whom I had never interacted with before, including a beautifully sweet gay man. Right down in TNZ, we discussed all manner of belief:; political, social, spiritual, and over time I began to see some things in different ways. My understanding of gay people began to morph into knowledge based on the idea exchanges I had been engaging in for several years up to that point. I began to study the Bible once more, looking for key passages that explained aspects of my faith that no longer made sense, and I found nothing to support them. Nothing. Everything I had been taught, everything I had chosen to believe, had been essentially made from whole cloth and passed on to me as fact, and these were things dear to me so they hadn't been included in that scrutiny up to that point. Well now they were under the microscope, too, and just as readily, I found they couldn't withstand the examination.

I have long held the belief that I would rather know the truth, no matter how unpleasant or painful, than believe a comforting lie. This applies to everything, and especially, at the time, my faith. These so-called pillars of morality that I had contained within me for decades were now shown to be illusions, and so that tower fell. More towers of faith began to fall, until in 2005, I realized that I was no longer a fundamentalist Christian. I was, at best, moderate, and even that was shaky. My political views had gone from ultra-conservative (voted for G.W. Bush in 2000), to iffy (John Kerry in 2004), to outright liberal (Obama in 2008). I had become more liberal with each passing year, and all as a part of my studies. It was around 2008, in fact, that I realized my ethics were being driven by my own personal morality, and realizing the power and strength I had within, I let go of the rigidity of religion as a necessity for morality.

In 2008, I had become a Christian Mystic. That is someone who follows the general spirituality of Christianity, but few of the demanding requirements. It was also in 2008 that I had my dark night of the soul, and doubted my faith as a whole. That would go on, back and forth, for some time until, like the snapping of a rubber band, I just no longer had the faith. I had come to the conclusion it was unnecessary at that point, that I had been without it for a long time anyway, and so I embraced my agnosticism. I wasn't ready to say there was no God, but I was willing to accept that I no longer knew for certain.

It was also around then that I finally accepted who and what I was. Since 2006, I had believed that being gay wasn't a sin, but I still wouldn't accept my own personal feelings because I didn't want to be biased against myself as accepting a comforting lie (I'm really difficult on myself). Over time, I realized my feelings were real, they were authentic, and that I knew my whole life had contained them, and so I accepted that I was pansexual (it means I don't consider gender a determining factor regarding whom I fall in love with). I also began to wear away at my own personal gender biases, because I had long grown tired of living by them when I didn't even like them. I was told as a child that boys liked one thing, and girls liked another, and that's the way it was.

The thing is, it wasn't that way for me. I liked all kinds of things, things that some felt were only for girls. While I never had trouble understanding I was male, and accepted that as part of my identity, I also didn't reject the idea that parts of my mind, pieces of thought and emotion, were most decidedly female. I believe everyone has this to some degree, great or small, and so I embraced that in myself. I'm a feminist, so to me being compared to a girl isn't an insult at all, but just one more accepting aspect of who I am. I am me. It took many years for me to come to terms with that, but it is the truth.

Sorry if I bored any of you with that. I tried not to ramble.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... what?

Don't worry. It's fine. And it's good that you learned to accept who and what you are.
 
Your post read so much like a parody of the stereotypical tumlr-ite identitarian statement of the preferred pronouns and gender-identity and all that jazz, that it seemed like you were poking fun at those "militant" atheist who can't but help tell everyone that they are atheist no matter the context or circumstance.
Turns out you were serious. That puts you in that same camp.

Your story about turning into an atheist is in line with many US atheist's stories online. Where they fall from one extreme into the other and pursue both in the same religious manner and fill the void that's left by the faith with something else.
I don't pursue my atheism. I simply live without a god or gods. Anything else is just a part of my personality.
 
Not that difficult. There's only a handful of them. They are irrelevant.
Oh certainly, they're irrelevant. I was just playing with the notion that sometimes the entire group consists of assholes, rather than a select few. ;)
 
Doom Shepherd, "Evengelical Atheist" is a very good description of some of hardliners who are constantly harping on about their non-belief. I've been calling them "born again atheists" but they can go further than that because some do try and convince you without regard to time and place. For example, vilifying believers at a Christening or funeral within the walls of a church. If they were respectful they would wait until they were outside the church. It's rather like insulting a host in their own home.

When does that ever happen, really?
I'm not saying there aren't some asshole atheists (Dawkins comes to mind, who's also a sexist jerk) but most atheists don't really spend much time thinking about religion.
I don't see groups of atheists standing around in cities telling people to stop believing. Most atheists simply don't give a shit about religion so they're not going out of their way to annoy religious people. Atheists, for the most part, just want to live their lives and not have religious people tell them how to do that.

Most atheists also aren't organized, you don't even notice them. Sure, when you ask them they might say something mean about believing in "sky daddy" but proselytizing just isn't inherent to atheism because the stakes are so much lower for us. We don't believe some greater being is going to smite us out of existence if we don't not-believe. We don't believe our own or others' eternal life is in danger because there is no eternal life.
Proselytizing is, on the other hand, an important feature of most religions. So is the belief that everybody (including non-believers) should adhere to that religion's rules and values.
 
I come across 'mean' atheists all the time but I tend to ignore them. I am tempted to give them a virtual pat on the head and say something like 'Bless your heart' but I usually refrain because that particular phrase might be lost on them. I do my best to turn the other cheek and all that which is something I wish other people of faith would do. I associate the 'mean' atheists with the preachers who stand on street corners yelling at the passing crowds because they think they're imitating John the Baptist or something. Same type of personality.

Thanks for sharing your story Coloratura. I have heard many similar stories from people who have come out of strict fundamentalism and we are all over the place now when it comes to lifestyles, self acceptance, spirituality or lack thereof. There is sort of a loose underground network support group of us floating around but I am not that heavily involved....too many triggers. I am however in a good place right now.
 
Thank you Coloratura.
People don't seem to realize that cane syrup is still sugar. For some reason, they've got it into their heads that sugar is a healthier alternative to HFCS and artificial sweeteners. It's like they didn't realize diabetes existed before the advent of man made sweeteners.


Yep! :D
Indeed, and they probably don't know that sucrose is a type of sugar found in many fruits.
 
I come across 'mean' atheists all the time but I tend to ignore them. I am tempted to give them a virtual pat on the head and say something like 'Bless your heart' but I usually refrain because that particular phrase might be lost on them. I do my best to turn the other cheek and all that which is something I wish other people of faith would do. I associate the 'mean' atheists with the preachers who stand on street corners yelling at the passing crowds because they think they're imitating John the Baptist or something. Same type of personality.

Well, except that they aren't doing that, in fact I don't remember seeing an atheist doing that anywhere in my entire life, even in the UK where Atheism may now be as high as 40% of Brits. But I walk past religious people proselytising on a daily basis. Yet somehow we are expected to believe this convenient narrative of nasty atheists being around every corner on the internet.

TBH, I think a lot of religious people would be offended by atheists regardless of what they say, just identifying as an atheist is enough to cause offense, just like when gay people identify themselves they are immediately accused of pushing their agenda on people. It's not what they say, it's what they are.
 
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