Hoshi versus T'Pol
- Thread starter iliescu
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Seriously (and this time, I'm not being facetious), apart from her emotional instability, T'Pol is pretty much like all other Vulcans: a smug, judgemental know-it-all (who doesn't know the difference between a carnivore and an omnivore). A number of them could have done her job. Ignoring the fact that ENT screws up language and how the art of linguistics works (that's not even what Hoshi's job is, so they don't even understand the terminology, but okay), Hoshi is irreplaceable. She's also a much nicer person to be around, but that's subjective.
Lordt yes. The more the better-the bigger the sandbox the more adventures!
Rather than Hoshi or T'Pol, Hoshi and T'Pol as a duo is much better. Hoshi and T'Pol worked well together whenever they were in the decon chamber.
Add Tucker to the mix and then we'll be in business.
Not a fan of this series at all but saw the thread title and just had to cast a vote … Hoshi Sato all the way! Total fox!
I'm glad we are in agreement.
Well, again.. Sexual attraction, definition of beauty/ sexiness etc. are individual phenomenon, they do not need acceptance of another person or reasoning in any way and so far they are legal, no one has to right judge them. But that is all. Sexiness, beautyness or sympathy make no one better crewman.
Facts are facts. Let me see what are you talking about and their reliability:
-
At the scene, was she corrected by Archer or Tucker? No! So it is stupidity of writers, not T'Pol's. Isn't it?
And if you like it or not, at those era Vulcans are superior to Terrans in many ways and both sides have their prejudices. It is normal how T'Pol behaves at the beginning. She was not volunteered the mission and she did not welcomed. Among the other Hoshi- our little lovely anxious Hoshi- was very aggressively to her, during she tried to make her job. Nevertheless, she stayed, she must not be. Even Archer was to proud to say "please" , she stayed with them and showed highly integrity and was open minded.
No, Archer could not find any other Vulcan who stays so long with them. No other Vulcan officer could stay at human vessel more than days. No, smell is not the only reason. And without T'Pol (or a residence Vulcan who does not exist) NX-01 was lost, we saw it in many occasions. So T'Pol is not replaceable.
Archer should not have any problems to find a better replacement for Hoshi after Broken Bow . She was second best even at her class. Not the best one. Archer must not choose someone at her age or class or someone from Starfleet (think about Phlox). So, if we think about this fact, there is hundreds of possible candidates for the communicator position and some of them sure with much more better skills than her. Do you have any arguments that contradicts this possibility? Hoshi is definitely replaceable.
-T'Pol rejected more than once to leave the Enterprise and crew. For this she got trouble with Vulcan High Command, Vulcan society, her mentor and family. She did not even let them go alone to Expanse, although she knew what can be happen to her. Which challenges hat Hoshi to stay with the crew? Even Archer did not know, if she says with them after Home episode (deleted scene). At Shockwave she made also private plans after canceling of mission, while T'Pol stays, fights, being tortured and confronts Soval, save the Enterprise mission and disgraced . Again which challenges must overcome Hoshi for stay at 'Enterprise?
- Of course Hoshi had some challenges: She was not ready for the mission, than she changed her meaning not for the greatest exploration mission of humanity, but being the first one to make a contact with Klingons. Totally, selfless, isn‘t it?
She does not like direction of stars from her window, so she should relocated and get the permission from captain. She did not want to go Axanar ship to help for the communication issues which was the main reason for her recruitment. After then, at the ship at the moment, all their lives depend on her help she gets panic, she shouts at her officers, needs to be convinced and relaxed. At the Sleeping Dogs, she must be again get relaxed, from T‘Pol. She has problems with transporter that she get delusions at Vanishing Point. She is still insecure at the second season, as she was the only person to help she tells about her claustrophobia and try not to do, while already tortured T‘Pol must be beaten for her part. Hoshi is first at the end of the third reason ready to fight with her life for the Enterprise. Next question, if you have to explore the dangerous all, which kind of officer do you want at your crew? More Hoshis or more T‘Pols?
- T'Pol made friends at the crew : Archer, Trip and Phlox and also find the love at another crew member. Which friends made Hoshi- I mean really friends, not good colleagues -at the crew? Maybe Trip? No. What did she as a person for another crew member? Ohh, yes she found the favorite food of Malcolm, well it was Archer's order.
If we come to our girly girl, cute, always-needs- protection Hoshi, is it real what we see? No. At Observer Effect we learn, that she organized illegal poker at the Starfleet and broke the arm of commander at her young ages and has black belt at aikido. Sorry, I cannot believe this kind of person can be later so anxious and so insecure. Well, what is the problem of Sato?
Sorry to tell, it is an illusion which is about gender concept cliche. „Male“ loves the „ cute, helpless females“ who deify their protecting males. And we know how such couples end at divorce court. „ He told me that he will do everything for me, but he did not and I could not take a breath from his so called love “ „She told me she loves me, but she loves money and power and more money and more power, not me!“
That‘s why I have great respect to men who are realistic and man enough to love strong females. So, it is another point why Trip is so amazing figure.
I wish writers, producers and directors made Hoshi a real woman and strong as T‘Pol. They could get better performance from Linda Park. At the ENT bible stand, they should be sisters. I do not know why they didn‘t follow this way?
Well, if some person still says, Hoshi is a better crewman, I want to answers to my bold written questions. Not, what you feel, what you think, as I written please reasoned it with facts.
Thank you!
Facts are facts. Let me see what are you talking about and their reliability:
-
At the scene, was she corrected by Archer or Tucker? No! So it is stupidity of writers, not T'Pol's. Isn't it?
And if you like it or not, at those era Vulcans are superior to Terrans in many ways and both sides have their prejudices. It is normal how T'Pol behaves at the beginning. She was not volunteered the mission and she did not welcomed. Among the other Hoshi- our little lovely anxious Hoshi- was very aggressively to her, during she tried to make her job. Nevertheless, she stayed, she must not be. Even Archer was to proud to say "please" , she stayed with them and showed highly integrity and was open minded.
No, Archer could not find any other Vulcan who stays so long with them. No other Vulcan officer could stay at human vessel more than days. No, smell is not the only reason. And without T'Pol (or a residence Vulcan who does not exist) NX-01 was lost, we saw it in many occasions. So T'Pol is not replaceable.
Archer should not have any problems to find a better replacement for Hoshi after Broken Bow . She was second best even at her class. Not the best one. Archer must not choose someone at her age or class or someone from Starfleet (think about Phlox). So, if we think about this fact, there is hundreds of possible candidates for the communicator position and some of them sure with much more better skills than her. Do you have any arguments that contradicts this possibility? Hoshi is definitely replaceable.
-T'Pol rejected more than once to leave the Enterprise and crew. For this she got trouble with Vulcan High Command, Vulcan society, her mentor and family. She did not even let them go alone to Expanse, although she knew what can be happen to her. Which challenges hat Hoshi to stay with the crew? Even Archer did not know, if she says with them after Home episode (deleted scene). At Shockwave she made also private plans after canceling of mission, while T'Pol stays, fights, being tortured and confronts Soval, save the Enterprise mission and disgraced . Again which challenges must overcome Hoshi for stay at 'Enterprise?
- Of course Hoshi had some challenges: She was not ready for the mission, than she changed her meaning not for the greatest exploration mission of humanity, but being the first one to make a contact with Klingons. Totally, selfless, isn‘t it?
She does not like direction of stars from her window, so she should relocated and get the permission from captain. She did not want to go Axanar ship to help for the communication issues which was the main reason for her recruitment. After then, at the ship at the moment, all their lives depend on her help she gets panic, she shouts at her officers, needs to be convinced and relaxed. At the Sleeping Dogs, she must be again get relaxed, from T‘Pol. She has problems with transporter that she get delusions at Vanishing Point. She is still insecure at the second season, as she was the only person to help she tells about her claustrophobia and try not to do, while already tortured T‘Pol must be beaten for her part. Hoshi is first at the end of the third reason ready to fight with her life for the Enterprise. Next question, if you have to explore the dangerous all, which kind of officer do you want at your crew? More Hoshis or more T‘Pols?
- T'Pol made friends at the crew : Archer, Trip and Phlox and also find the love at another crew member. Which friends made Hoshi- I mean really friends, not good colleagues -at the crew? Maybe Trip? No. What did she as a person for another crew member? Ohh, yes she found the favorite food of Malcolm, well it was Archer's order.
If we come to our girly girl, cute, always-needs- protection Hoshi, is it real what we see? No. At Observer Effect we learn, that she organized illegal poker at the Starfleet and broke the arm of commander at her young ages and has black belt at aikido. Sorry, I cannot believe this kind of person can be later so anxious and so insecure. Well, what is the problem of Sato?
Sorry to tell, it is an illusion which is about gender concept cliche. „Male“ loves the „ cute, helpless females“ who deify their protecting males. And we know how such couples end at divorce court. „ He told me that he will do everything for me, but he did not and I could not take a breath from his so called love “ „She told me she loves me, but she loves money and power and more money and more power, not me!“
That‘s why I have great respect to men who are realistic and man enough to love strong females. So, it is another point why Trip is so amazing figure.
I wish writers, producers and directors made Hoshi a real woman and strong as T‘Pol. They could get better performance from Linda Park. At the ENT bible stand, they should be sisters. I do not know why they didn‘t follow this way?
Well, if some person still says, Hoshi is a better crewman, I want to answers to my bold written questions. Not, what you feel, what you think, as I written please reasoned it with facts.
Thank you!
No offence, but seriously, "it's the writers that are dumb, not the characters"? The character is fictional, written like that. So that's just arguing semantics, which I care very little about or for. That kind of argument is a distraction from the actual criticism, which is that early on in the season, this particular character was obnoxious and made statements that were patently erroneous. For someone this smug in their superiority, it's an egregious mistake worthy of mockery. Also, I always say that she was obnoxious at first, but that she grew on me over the course of the season. If a character acts like they are better than their peers and then says something ludicrously stupid in a failed attempt at insulting said peers (she said that carnivore line to prove she was better for being a vegetarian), I don't give a flying Talosian bat's furry behind whose mistake it was. It's a mistake that I will berate the character for. I will not ruin my suspension of disbelief every time the writers are wrong.
You can like whoever you wish, and that's fine, but that kind of line of argument will not fly. I would refrain from calling Hoshi 'not a real woman', too. That's just asking for trouble.
I like T'Pol just fine and think Jolene did a splendid job, by the way. Her character was three-dimensional and complex and flawed and sympathetic. That wasn't the premise of this thread, though, and mostly, I was just trying (and clearly failing) to be cute.
You can like whoever you wish, and that's fine, but that kind of line of argument will not fly. I would refrain from calling Hoshi 'not a real woman', too. That's just asking for trouble.
I like T'Pol just fine and think Jolene did a splendid job, by the way. Her character was three-dimensional and complex and flawed and sympathetic. That wasn't the premise of this thread, though, and mostly, I was just trying (and clearly failing) to be cute.
No one can be offended for a discussion like Hoshi vs T'Pol , and today is still Sunday so I am not feeling desire for meta level discussion.
I never read or see from someone in charge who said they created T'Pol with intention to ignorance smart alec. T'Pol comes from a "superior" civilization and after hundred year experience they are still thinking humanity is not mature enough. Of course she thinks at the beginning in this way, of course she has her prejudices and captain and crew was very unfair to her. It is also objectively shown at the beginning which I very esteem. What the writers intended and how good they are at this are two different issues. And criticizing her figure over a weak written scene does not make sense, she did not even denote that human eat only and solely meat. Eating probably sentient beings is an actually discussion, (even ENT go through with the topic at the Rogue Planet), she had all right the ask the question after 150 years from our time. You could be ask about the issue even today, not from a superior Vulcan but from any random vegan/vegetarian. ST has always integrated (and mostly very successful) actual problems to its arc. Maybe they tried here the same.
As I more than once told, I am arguing about who is better crewman and of course I will bring some facts and waiting from the others the same. If the discussion about what you like, what you find sexy etc. it does not make sense bringing arguments and I am not talking about, as I told before. Love is illogical. Again, I am talking about crewman skills and I am not talking whom I like more or someone should. It is not my thing. Please do not imply the things that I did not say and never will say. I am open to critic but only about the things, that I said/made. Maybe it helps to read again, what I wrote.
I wrote the reasons why I have problems with Hoshi figure and I gave examples and reasoned my meaning. I do not understand, why it should be asking for a trouble? And I will enjoy, if someone can tell with arguments why Hoshi should be a better crewman.I am not asking for a "trouble", I am here for having fun, so to say I am here when I enough from "getting a life"
. I do not take my self always serious here, I will suggest it to everyone for his/herself too.
I never read or see from someone in charge who said they created T'Pol with intention to ignorance smart alec. T'Pol comes from a "superior" civilization and after hundred year experience they are still thinking humanity is not mature enough. Of course she thinks at the beginning in this way, of course she has her prejudices and captain and crew was very unfair to her. It is also objectively shown at the beginning which I very esteem. What the writers intended and how good they are at this are two different issues. And criticizing her figure over a weak written scene does not make sense, she did not even denote that human eat only and solely meat. Eating probably sentient beings is an actually discussion, (even ENT go through with the topic at the Rogue Planet), she had all right the ask the question after 150 years from our time. You could be ask about the issue even today, not from a superior Vulcan but from any random vegan/vegetarian. ST has always integrated (and mostly very successful) actual problems to its arc. Maybe they tried here the same.
As I more than once told, I am arguing about who is better crewman and of course I will bring some facts and waiting from the others the same. If the discussion about what you like, what you find sexy etc. it does not make sense bringing arguments and I am not talking about, as I told before. Love is illogical. Again, I am talking about crewman skills and I am not talking whom I like more or someone should. It is not my thing. Please do not imply the things that I did not say and never will say. I am open to critic but only about the things, that I said/made. Maybe it helps to read again, what I wrote.
I wrote the reasons why I have problems with Hoshi figure and I gave examples and reasoned my meaning. I do not understand, why it should be asking for a trouble? And I will enjoy, if someone can tell with arguments why Hoshi should be a better crewman.I am not asking for a "trouble", I am here for having fun, so to say I am here when I enough from "getting a life"
. I do not take my self always serious here, I will suggest it to everyone for his/herself too.
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Well, again.. Sexual attraction, definition of beauty/ sexiness etc. are individual phenomenon, they do not need acceptance of another person or reasoning in any way and so far they are legal, no one has to right judge them. But that is all. Sexiness, beautyness or sympathy make no one better crewman.
Facts are facts. Let me see what are you talking about and their reliability:
-
At the scene, was she corrected by Archer or Tucker? No! So it is stupidity of writers, not T'Pol's. Isn't it?
And if you like it or not, at those era Vulcans are superior to Terrans in many ways and both sides have their prejudices. It is normal how T'Pol behaves at the beginning. She was not volunteered the mission and she did not welcomed. Among the other Hoshi- our little lovely anxious Hoshi- was very aggressively to her, during she tried to make her job. Nevertheless, she stayed, she must not be. Even Archer was to proud to say "please" , she stayed with them and showed highly integrity and was open minded.
No, Archer could not find any other Vulcan who stays so long with them. No other Vulcan officer could stay at human vessel more than days. No, smell is not the only reason. And without T'Pol (or a residence Vulcan who does not exist) NX-01 was lost, we saw it in many occasions. So T'Pol is not replaceable.
Archer should not have any problems to find a better replacement for Hoshi after Broken Bow . She was second best even at her class. Not the best one. Archer must not choose someone at her age or class or someone from Starfleet (think about Phlox). So, if we think about this fact, there is hundreds of possible candidates for the communicator position and some of them sure with much more better skills than her. Do you have any arguments that contradicts this possibility? Hoshi is definitely replaceable.
-T'Pol rejected more than once to leave the Enterprise and crew. For this she got trouble with Vulcan High Command, Vulcan society, her mentor and family. She did not even let them go alone to Expanse, although she knew what can be happen to her. Which challenges hat Hoshi to stay with the crew? Even Archer did not know, if she says with them after Home episode (deleted scene). At Shockwave she made also private plans after canceling of mission, while T'Pol stays, fights, being tortured and confronts Soval, save the Enterprise mission and disgraced . Again which challenges must overcome Hoshi for stay at 'Enterprise?
- Of course Hoshi had some challenges: She was not ready for the mission, than she changed her meaning not for the greatest exploration mission of humanity, but being the first one to make a contact with Klingons. Totally, selfless, isn‘t it?
She does not like direction of stars from her window, so she should relocated and get the permission from captain. She did not want to go Axanar ship to help for the communication issues which was the main reason for her recruitment. After then, at the ship at the moment, all their lives depend on her help she gets panic, she shouts at her officers, needs to be convinced and relaxed. At the Sleeping Dogs, she must be again get relaxed, from T‘Pol. She has problems with transporter that she get delusions at Vanishing Point. She is still insecure at the second season, as she was the only person to help she tells about her claustrophobia and try not to do, while already tortured T‘Pol must be beaten for her part. Hoshi is first at the end of the third reason ready to fight with her life for the Enterprise. Next question, if you have to explore the dangerous all, which kind of officer do you want at your crew? More Hoshis or more T‘Pols?
- T'Pol made friends at the crew : Archer, Trip and Phlox and also find the love at another crew member. Which friends made Hoshi- I mean really friends, not good colleagues -at the crew? Maybe Trip? No. What did she as a person for another crew member? Ohh, yes she found the favorite food of Malcolm, well it was Archer's order.
If we come to our girly girl, cute, always-needs- protection Hoshi, is it real what we see? No. At Observer Effect we learn, that she organized illegal poker at the Starfleet and broke the arm of commander at her young ages and has black belt at aikido. Sorry, I cannot believe this kind of person can be later so anxious and so insecure. Well, what is the problem of Sato?
Sorry to tell, it is an illusion which is about gender concept cliche. „Male“ loves the „ cute, helpless females“ who deify their protecting males. And we know how such couples end at divorce court. „ He told me that he will do everything for me, but he did not and I could not take a breath from his so called love “ „She told me she loves me, but she loves money and power and more money and more power, not me!“
That‘s why I have great respect to men who are realistic and man enough to love strong females. So, it is another point why Trip is so amazing figure.
I wish writers, producers and directors made Hoshi a real woman and strong as T‘Pol. They could get better performance from Linda Park. At the ENT bible stand, they should be sisters. I do not know why they didn‘t follow this way?
Well, if some person still says, Hoshi is a better crewman, I want to answers to my bold written questions. Not, what you feel, what you think, as I written please reasoned it with facts.
Thank you!
tl;dr
A lot of vegans now have T'Pol's attitude toward people who eat meat. In France, some Vegans even committed acts of terrorism against butcheries, especially small ones (all it does is the promotion of industrial meat markets)... So much for being civilized and enlightened.
Yikes. I used to be a vegan (it led to complications), but I would never attack anyone. That doesn't make T'Pol's remark any better, though. Nope, not letting that go anytime soon. 
I'd rather just see them both sitting down together having a raktajino or vulcan tea, talking about random stuff.
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