Honestly, Insurrection isn't that bad...

[Ssosmcin]

It also continues the Picard is now an action hero thing. They didn't need to do that, cmon. Worf is right there for goodness sake. It is great when he gets to let loose and owns the sh1t out of the Son'a.

Yeah Riker and Worf (initially Yar) were created to handle the action to anser the criticisms of Kirk always leading landing parties. But over time, Stewart got antsy. "The captain doesn't do enough fighting and f'king on this show." Generations, at least, had him getting beat up by Soran so Kirk could be the action guy. That was only film where we saw TV Picard. After that, I can almost hear him saying "if you want me in these things, I need to be throwing punches."

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah Riker and Worf (initially Yar) were created to handle the action to anser the criticisms of Kirk always leading landing parties. But over time, Stewart got antsy. "The captain doesn't do enough fighting and f'king on this show." Generations, at least, had him getting beat up by Soran so Kirk could be the action guy. That was only film where we saw TV Picard. After that, I can almost hear him saying "if you want me in these things, I need to be throwing punches."

Come on; we all know that TWOK would have been way better if Kirk punches out Khan! /s

 

[CoveTom]

Come on; we all know that TWOK would have been way better if Kirk punches out Khan! /s

Believe it or not, Shatner pressed for their to be a fistfight between Kirk and Khan in the film and, to this day, seems to think the movie would have been better with it. He finally got his wish, at least, in TSFS with Kruge. Personally, I think it's kind of unique and good for the film that the protagonist and the antagonist never actually meet.

 

[fireproof78]

Believe it or not, Shatner pressed for their to be a fistfight between Kirk and Khan in the film and, to this day, seems to think the movie would have been better with it. He finally got his wish, at least, in TSFS with Kruge. Personally, I think it's kind of unique and good for the film that the protagonist and the antagonist never actually meet.

*That's the joke.gif here*

Thank you though and I do agree.

 

[Uxi]

I’m sure the architects of the Trail of Tears were able to justify their actions against the “Five Civilized Tribes” the same way.

Still doesn’t make it right.

That was also lingering resentment and partial payback for their backing the Confederacy in the Civil War. Three of the five were also on the other side in the Revolutionary War, as well which didn't help.

The thing is, if the Son'a had been smart about it, the Federation shouldn't have even been involved in the first place...at least, not at the point where the film picks up.

All the Son'a had to do was say, "We're the same race as the Bak'u (do a DNA test if you don't believe us!) and we're coming back to reclaim the planet from which we were exiled. Whether we win or lose, this is an internal matter, and as your Prime Directive forbids you from involving yourselves in internal matters...kindly bugger off, and once this is resolved, if the government wants to work with you, they'll be in touch."

That would have been a delicious irony and smart villains to keep pulling reverse uno cards. Another one, Dougherty had claimed the Federal Council authorized him and this is kind of punted with it more implication that Dougherty was actually lying but imagine if it's true and Picard is actually guilty of mutiny and treason and really does sacrifice career for his principles. Guess that might be more TV Picard than Action Picard.

That was another conflict. Geordi is able to grow brand new eyes in 12 hours, but the S’ona were too far gone to be helped.

Should’ve went “The Omega Glory” route. The particles weren’t magic but more like a vitamin that had very minor effects on outsiders. People lived longer there because it became natural in that environment.

But even if you look past that glaring problem, there's the matter of how this film contorts things to create an action-adventure film by never bothering to have the Son'a, the Bak'u, and the Federation meet with each other and actually talk about the situation and try to come up with a compromise. In that sense, this movie arguably betrays the ideals of TNG's "let's go to the conference room and talk about this before we do anything hasty" spirit more than any other.

The movie could have been great if it incorporated a bunch of these as twists and more Show, Not Tell storytelling letting the audience go with the characters understanding this is much more complicated at each stage and perhaps even some of the crew opposing each other. At first it seems simply that Baku good, Son'a bad and boy are they bad without redemption - a more nuanced shades of gray approach might have shown the Baku as insular and indifferent to outsight suffering if not sanctimonious Luddites (at least from the point of view of the Son'a). Then, wait a minute moral issue of needs of the many vs the needs of the few. "Dougherty is with the Bad Guys, but what if he's right?" Then, "whoah the Prime Directive says we need to get out of this."

When it's revealed that there is no magic fountain of youth, it's clearly an internal dispute. With all of that on the table, does Picard say they're going to violate the Prime Directive and help the Baku anyway?

 

[Uxi]

I'm looking at his post-mortem now, and what he would have done differently. I love his instinct here that the script should have leaned harder into the Dominion War, because... well, I'll let Piller explain:

One more scene and two Captain's logs could have gotten this across and would have entirely changed the movie.

 

[Yistaan]

With the revelation that Piller and Dorn were not exactly on cozy terms around this time, I'm wondering if the casualty with which Stewart mangled Piller's story ideas had some motivation, even subconsciously, stemming from how Piller treated Dorn (and maybe the rest of the cast too).

 

[CoveTom]

With the revelation that Piller and Dorn were not exactly on cozy terms around this time, I'm wondering if the casualty with which Stewart mangled Piller's story ideas had some motivation, even subconsciously, stemming from how Piller treated Dorn (and maybe the rest of the cast too).

Is this relating to the way Piller spoke to Dorn about his initially not wanting to come to DS9?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

With the revelation that Piller and Dorn were not exactly on cozy terms around this time, I'm wondering if the casualty with which Stewart mangled Piller's story ideas had some motivation, even subconsciously, stemming from how Piller treated Dorn (and maybe the rest of the cast too).

In Fade In Piller writes about how Brent Spiner didn't really like him, either. Part of it was his relative anonymity -- his name didn't usually end up on scripts, even though he was involved in break sessions and doing rewrites on everything -- so Spiner felt that Piller didn't really know the characters. While I think that says something about Spiner, that he mistook the name on the script as meaning more than it did, when multiple people have a problem with Piller, maybe the problem is Piller.

Piller calling Dorn "the most unprofessional actor" is plain stupid. There's no need for that, and I question what Piller was even trying to achieve with the insult.

 

[Yistaan]

In Fade In Piller writes about how Brent Spiner didn't really like him, either. Part of it was his relative anonymity -- his name didn't usually end up on scripts, even though he was involved in break sessions and doing rewrites on everything -- so Spiner felt that Piller didn't really know the characters. While I think that says something about Spiner, that he mistook the name on the script as meaning more than it did, when multiple people have a problem with Piller, maybe the problem is Piller.

Piller calling Dorn "the most unprofessional actor" is plain stupid. There's no need for that, and I question what Piller was even trying to achieve with the insult.

To be fair, Piller might have been exasperated with Dorn and just straight up said something he shouldn't have said. It happens on this board all the time with people ready to demonize even after an apology. However, we don't have any indication that Piller ever apologized to Dorn about this.

 

[Uxi]

Yeah everyone has bad days sometimes. Maybe Dorn pulled a Christian Bale rant or something like that? Or it was Piller's bad day. Or a bit of both.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I can buy exasperation on Piller's part with Dorn to a certain extent. I can even imagine how such a conversation would go down. Piller is trying to sell Dorn on all of the things that can be done with his character, the stories that can be told, etc. Then Dorn shuts him down with, "No, I'm good. I'm going to pass." And Piller, whose life's work had been writing stories about characters gets flumoxed because the actor he's trying to sell on a story wants no part of it, and he's not even open to it. On that level, yeah, maybe he would see Dorn as "unprofessional," because the actor didn't want to talk character and story.

But then the next words out of Piller's mouth should have been, "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that." It doesn't take it back, and Dorn would be right to respond with, "But you did, Michael. You did."

I'm sure Dorn's agent had a field day with this when he negotiated Dorn's deal. I remember assuming at the time that Dorn would be second-billed, after Brooks, and I felt a little confused when he wasn't.

 

[BillJ]

I'm sure Dorn's agent had a field day with this when he negotiated Dorn's deal. I remember assuming at the time that Dorn would be second-billed, after Brooks, and I felt a little confused when he wasn't.

In all honesty, I wish they hadn't added Dorn to DS9. I think it made the show weaker overall.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I didn't mind Worf in DS9. Of the TNG crew that went the distance, he was the main character who would best fit there -- though Frakes as Tom Riker, if "Defiant" hadn't happened, might've been a good choice, too -- and I didn't feel he was over used. There were times I felt he was underutilized. Like, why make a big deal about adding Worf to the show -- it got a TV Guide cover! -- and then not use him that much? At least, that was how I felt in season four.

 

[BillJ]

I didn't mind Worf in DS9. Of the TNG crew that went the distance, he was the main character who would best fit there -- though Frakes as Tom Riker, if "Defiant" hadn't happened, might've been a good choice, too -- and I didn't feel he was over used. There were times I felt he was underutilized. Like, why make a big deal about adding Worf to the show -- it got a TV Guide cover! -- and then not use him that much? At least, that was how I felt in season four.

By that point I was already burned out on Klingon stuff.

 

[Tomalak]

Piller calling Dorn "the most unprofessional actor" is plain stupid. There's no need for that, and I question what Piller was even trying to achieve with the insult.

We only have Dorn's side of the story long after the fact, but we know Piller could be blunt and insensitive. He infamously wrote a patronising memo to the TNG writing staff, telling them how to write a script, despite Ira Behr begging him not to.

By that point I was already burned out on Klingon stuff.

Imagine how Ron Moore must have felt. He moved to DS9, eager to write space station stories, but his first job was to introduce the show's brand new starship. Then Worf joins and he becomes the "Klingon guy" again. Then his disastrous stint on Voyager involves him writing... a Klingon story.

 

[BillJ]

Imagine how Ron Moore must have felt. He moved to DS9, eager to write space station stories, but his first job was to introduce the show's brand new starship. Then Worf joins and he becomes the "Klingon guy" again. Then his disastrous stint on Voyager involves him writing... a Klingon story.

Yeah, but he was getting paid for it. We have to pay for the pleasure with our time and/or money.

 

[MurphyCooper]

Insurrection wasn't too bad, but it wasn't my favorite of the Star Trek movies. It felt more like a TNG Episode than an actual movie.

 

[DonIago]

This has become kind of a sad read for me. Until the last few posts in here I was under the impression that Piller was generally fairly well-regarded.

 

[Tomalak]

This has become kind of a sad read for me. Until the last few posts in here I was under the impression that Piller was generally fairly well-regarded.

He absolutely is. But no one is perfect.

Read Fade In - he's always been very open about his own failings and limitations. And he's got nothing on Roddenberry!