Holodeck Technology - Does it really make sense?

[Timo]

There seemed to be more privacy for Quark's holosuites than onboard a Starfleet starship since it was often implied that the holosuites were a holographic brothel. Or maybe Quark's customers simply didn't care what others thought of what they were doing in there.

I suspect the latter would be closer to the truth - after all, on many an occasion we learn Quark's holosuites aren't soundproof (listen to Kor in "Blood Oath", for example!)...

OTOH, in "A Man Alone" it's something of a plot point that not just anybody could have waltzed in and murdered that cloned guy during his holo-massage: Odo says the door was "secured against entry", meaning only a shapeshifter could have seeped his way in. In contrast, no Starfleet holodeck was ever deliberately secured against entry - all the cases of the door not opening were malfunctions or malice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

My parent had five kids (and apparently no hobbys) some of the places we lived had lock-less bathroom doors, people can learn to be polite about knocking. And if you're going to have noisy sex at least put on some music!

 

[Luther Sloan]

In contrast, no Starfleet holodeck was ever deliberately secured against entry - all the cases of the door not opening were malfunctions or malice.

Well, that is not exactly true. In First Contact: Picard had sealed the doors to the Holodeck to prevent the Borg to gain entry. Of which the Borg forced the doors open with their bare hands then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OCKDEdtWys&feature=related

 

[StarryEyed]

Now, for enjoying programs such as Vulcan Love Slave #69 and what not: My thought is that the Holodeck taps into the pleasure centers of your brain with a beam that fools you into feeling something that is not actually there. Forcefields could further add to the effect of this mental manipulation, as well.

That makes sense. But it would make even more sense if the entire experience is projected directly into the brain as others have said.

The biggest problem with the holodeck is the amount of physical people in there. The biggest offender in this regard was Vick's on DS9 but Sandrine's on Voyager was pretty bad too. It would take a lot of space to get all those actual people in there.

As to how unbelievable the tech is, I don't know. One piece of tech that came up in my lifetime that still amazes me is optical disks. I have a background in computers and electronics so I have a very clear understanding of how it works from a theoretical standpoint. The thing I can't wrap my head around is how it is possible to physically position the laser so precisely using cheap motors and plastic gears!

I'm not alone. A lot of "experts" predicted that a car driving by would create enough vibration to throw of the laser in a CD player in a house unless the whole structure was mounted on shock absorbers! But the thing works - despite the inability of people like me to comprehend it. I've talked to mechanical engineers who have no problem with it at all but admit to being unable to comprehend the electronics end of it - which is crystal-clear to me.

The point I'm making here is that our inability to fathom certain treknology doesn't mean that much. Consider the look of the bridge on the original Star Trek series. It wouldn't have cost that much more to do an LCARS look. Most of those fancy panels on the Enterprise-D were just back-lit paintings on acrylic. They could have done it on the original series. The thing is, the idea of using a dynamic graphics display as an input device was almost inconceivable in the sixties. I don't know if the shows creators could have thought of it but even if they had, the audience probably would not have accepted it.

 

[apollo1984]

Saying that the floor is like a treadmill dows make sense in most cases but the think that gets me is how are they able to access the holodeck controls from inside the holodeck, I assume they are situated on the wall but if it is like a treadmill they would never be able to get to the edge of the room to use them.

 

[Luther Sloan]

The biggest problem with the holodeck is the amount of physical people in there. The biggest offender in this regard was Vick's on DS9 but Sandrine's on Voyager was pretty bad too. It would take a lot of space to get all those actual people in there.

Starry Eyed:

Yeah, I think when there is limited space in the Holodeck or Holosuite, I think you pretty much are running or walking in small square foot space. And when a person you know moves beyond the Holodeck wall, it is their image that is projected into the distance. This can be tricky, especially if the crew is playing baseball within a small Holosuite. Also, the Holodeck must send a beam into your brain throwing off your natural sense of perspective, as well.

 

[StarryEyed]

There's no doubt that the holodeck is a stretch. The only reason I can imagine such a thing being built is if there is a 24th century taboo or discomfort concerning direct computer-neural interface. Perhaps they consider that a slippery slope to the Borg.

Truthfully, physical displays and control panels like we see all over the ship would be WAY less efficient than a direct neural interface to the ship's computer. Why have them unless people are frightened or repulsed by neural interfaces?

 

[scotpens]

There's no doubt that the holodeck is a stretch. The only reason I can imagine such a thing being built is if there is a 24th century taboo or discomfort concerning direct computer-neural interface. Perhaps they consider that a slippery slope to the Borg.

Truthfully, physical displays and control panels like we see all over the ship would be WAY less efficient than a direct neural interface to the ship's computer. Why have them unless people are frightened or repulsed by neural interfaces?

Good point. Even if totally realistic virtual-reality simulations could be input directly into the brain, I'm not sure how I'd feel about a bioport being implanted in my spine a la eXistenZ. And what would happen if there's a glitch in the software? Sure, some pretty hairy things can happen on the holodeck, but at least you don't get your brains scrambled.

 

[Ensign Johnson]

Its more believable than travelling faster than the speed of light or Earth having no crime.

I mostly feel sorry for who ever has to clean the holodecks. Do they have cleaners in the future or is everything self cleaning?

 

[scotpens]

^ Apropos of that comment:

Blue Stripe: The Life and Times of a Holodeck Janitor

(No pictures, but don't read it while you're having dinner.)

 

[Myasishchev]

Zack Parsons is always great.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

My friends and I often discussed how the holodeck would work between classes. Coming from a purely mechanical engineering standpoint, this is what we theorized:

Limited Space - In cases such as the pilot for Voyager, when many people are in a large area out of site of one another, our theory was each person has an image field projected around them that simulates the area they are supposed to be in. In reality, everyone is quite close. They state in at least one episode that the holodeck uses an energy treadmill to give you the illusion of movement. As you move, the image field you are in moves but you stand still to conserve space.

Illusion of Reality - It's also stated the holodeck uses replicator technology to make objects. Considering they've mastered energy manipulation, this doesn't actually take as much effort as you think. Remember that E is equal to m times the speed of light squared. If you enter a room with X amount of mass in items, the energy is drained from the ship. Then, once those items are no longer needed (such as leaving a room), they're vaporized into the exact same amount of energy it took to create them, so nothing is lost and it, in theory, didn't cost anything to do (excluding Entropy, and assuming there is any in E = mc^2. That's a discussion for another time).

Illusion of People - Since replicating people is impossible (or at least immoral), to create a realistic humanoid that feels real (IE, warm skin with actual skin texture) would be deceptively simple. Think about this: All matter is energy contained using different methods. To wit, your body is also energy in one state of existence. To wit, an artificial body can be created by mimicking those energy patterns.

If that last part sounds too Deus Ex Machina, it's not. It's actually true, because it exists now:

http://psycserver.psyc.queensu.ca/lederman/102.pdf

Everyone that hears about this calls shenanigans. I did too, until I saw it on a Discovery Channel program in which people tested it and all of them said it defiantly worked. By stimulating electrical senses similar to touching something like skin, or wood, or rock, it gave the perfect illusion the person was, even though they were just touching glass.

This would obviously be more energy draining than making objects and then deleting them, but I remind you the energy capabilities of a Matter/Anti-Matter reaction are pretty limitless.

 

[StarryEyed]

If you enter a room with X amount of mass in items, the energy is drained from the ship. Then, once those items are no longer needed (such as leaving a room), they're vaporized into the exact same amount of energy it took to create them, so nothing is lost and it, in theory, didn't cost anything to do (excluding Entropy, and assuming there is any in E = mc^2. That's a discussion for another time).

I don't buy that at all. It's fine theoretically but if it was that easy to convert matter to its equivalent energy, they wouldn't need anti-matter.

 

[froot]

I think the most unbelievable thing about the holodecks is their social impact. Hell, how many bajillions of hours do people spend playing MMOs or text-roleplaying or whatever? Humans love interactive storytelling. (I say this as a long-time MMO player. )

I think holo-addiction would be a much, much bigger problem than it's made out to be in Star Trek. I would go so far as to say human society is probably doomed the second they mass-produce holodecks. Who wants to live in reality when we can reject it and substitute it with our own?

The only time anyone'd ever have to exit is to use the bathroom or eat. At least, I hope people'd actually leave the holodeck to go to the bathroom.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

We always assumed Starfleet Officers got paid in holodeck time and replicator rations. So the real incentives to joining an organization that will more than likely be the death of you in a society without currency is to get to the holodeck and to be able to eat brownies and snickers bars all day long without consequence.

Makes sense to me.

As for the energy conversion, they state several times that's how the replicators work. Yes, you could argue it might be safer and possibly easier to just vaporize a fuel supply into instant energy than to use the antimatter reaction, but you have to realize that even carrying the densest material they could, they would run out of it real fast with the energy requirements they need. The Matter/Antimatter reaction lasts a long, long, long, long time, and you can store far more antimatter. They mention they have an antimatter creator, but were wise enough never to show it or go into how it works.

Point is for 5-year missions and other deep treks into space, having the less finite fuel supply wins.

Also, they turn matter into energy all the time. Look at all the times they vaporize people with phasers.

 

[StarryEyed]

As for the energy conversion, they state several times that's how the replicators work. Yes, you could argue it might be safer and possibly easier to just vaporize a fuel supply into instant energy than to use the antimatter reaction, but you have to realize that even carrying the densest material they could, they would run out of it real fast with the energy requirements they need. The Matter/Antimatter reaction lasts a long, long, long, long time, and you can store far more antimatter.

I never heard mention that the replicators make mass from energy and it certainly wouldn't make sense. I don't know if you understand just how much energy a gram of matter equates to. No way they work like that; they wouldn't be used except for dire necessities if they did.

The part about getting more energy from a matter/anti-matter reaction than a simple conversion of matter to energy is incorrect. The amount would be exactly the same. The amount of energy in anti-matter is exactly the same as for matter: E=MC^2. The only point of anti-matter is that when you combine it with matter, the two annihilate totally and you get the energy equivalent of the combined mass. So once again, if the replicators could do what you say, there would be no need for anti-matter.

Phasers do not turn mass into energy. If the mass of a person were turned into energy, the result would be an explosion equivalent to thousands of nuclear bombs.

 

[T'Girl]

... they turn matter into energy all the time. Look at all the times they vaporize people with phasers.

Phasers do not turn mass into energy. If the mass of a person were turned into energy, the result would be an explosion equivalent to thousands of nuclear bombs.

I believe the phaser work by releasing the bonds holding your molecules together, you're not turned into energy, you simply come apart. The only energy would be some short lived long wave radiation.

 

[StarryEyed]

... they turn matter into energy all the time. Look at all the times they vaporize people with phasers.

Phasers do not turn mass into energy. If the mass of a person were turned into energy, the result would be an explosion equivalent to thousands of nuclear bombs.

I believe the phaser work by releasing the bonds holding your molecules together, you're not turned into energy, you simply come apart. The only energy would be some short lived long wave radiation.

I have roughly calculated that converting a 75 kilogram man to energy would release 1.6 million kilotons - about equal to 76,700 atomic bombs of the type that was dropped on Nagasaki.

Some people have hypothesized that phasers cancel the strong nuclear force in an atom which holds the nucleus together against the repeling force of all the positively charged protons. The atoms would fly apart. The effect would be identical to a fission bomb. I don't know how to calculate the kilotons from the same 75 kilogram target but it would be larger than even the biggest atomic bombs. Not even a candle compared to turning all the mass to energy but still enough to ruin the remainder of the shooter's life. Part of the hypothesis is that the explosion is phase-shifted out of the continuum (a pure sci-fi concept) and that is where the word phaser comes from. So we just see the target flare up and vanish. Nice and tidy!

 

[Rett Mikhal]

I never heard mention that the replicators make mass from energy and it certainly wouldn't make sense. I don't know if you understand just how much energy a gram of matter equates to. No way they work like that; they wouldn't be used except for dire necessities if they did.

They mention it in "Year From Hell." Janeway tells everyone to vaporize non-essential items for power, including her birthday gift from Chakotay.

The part about getting more energy from a matter/anti-matter reaction than a simple conversion of matter to energy is incorrect. The amount would be exactly the same. The amount of energy in anti-matter is exactly the same as for matter: E=MC^2. The only point of anti-matter is that when you combine it with matter, the two annihilate totally and you get the energy equivalent of the combined mass. So once again, if the replicators could do what you say, there would be no need for anti-matter.

You're right from a scientific stance, but it is stated several times that it's not a mixing of anti-matter (that would cause an explosion), but a sustained reaction somehow using dilithium. I think Scotty says breaking the anti-matter pods would make a 100 MT explosion, and he says this like it's nothing. Add to that how much energy it really requires to make a ship of XX size go several order of magnitude faster than light and I think we can assume they get a lot more energy out of those warp cores.

I've always assumed the warp cores operate more like fuel cells. The dilithium acts like a catalyst and replenishes the anti-matter in addition to energy at the expense of itself, like platinum in a hydrogen fuel cell. You know the warp core goes faster and faster the higher warp the ship goes, perhaps you're actually seeing hundreds if not thousands of matter/anti-matter reactions happening at once to make the kind of power they need.

Based on the 100 MT explosion Scotty mentions, that's less than 3 kg in all the pods, which is believable considering the difficulties storing anti-matter (it can't touch anything, even other particles of anti-matter). That would be exhausted right quick going to warp, me thinks. They do mention having to replace dilithium every so often and the dilithium getting drained.

We'll never know how much energy a warp field takes, but my guess would be astronomical. There has to be a REASON for them to carry around anti-matter even though they vaporize the dishes on a daily basis.

I have roughly calculated that converting a 75 kilogram man to energy would release 1.6 million kilotons - about equal to 76,700 atomic bombs of the type that was dropped on Nagasaki.

Some people have hypothesized that phasers cancel the strong nuclear force in an atom which holds the nucleus together against the repeling force of all the positively charged protons. The atoms would fly apart. The effect would be identical to a fission bomb. I don't know how to calculate the kilotons from the same 75 kilogram target but it would be larger than even the biggest atomic bombs. Not even a candle compared to turning all the mass to energy but still enough to ruin the remainder of the shooter's life. Part of the hypothesis is that the explosion is phase-shifted out of the continuum (a pure sci-fi concept) and that is where the word phaser comes from. So we just see the target flare up and vanish. Nice and tidy!

It's true phasers are hard to understand. I think one of the easiest explanations is they turn you into energy... very slowly. Similar to the "phase" theory, you're converted into another state of matter that slowly dissolves, perhaps over the period of hundreds of years. Since Energy is Work over Time, with a great amount of work over an even greater amount of time, it isn't much at all.

 

[Unicron]

I think holo-addiction would be a much, much bigger problem than it's made out to be in Star Trek. I would go so far as to say human society is probably doomed the second they mass-produce holodecks. Who wants to live in reality when we can reject it and substitute it with our own?

Bruce Coville mentioned this sort of problem in My Teacher Glows In The Dark, part of his My Teacher Is An Alien series. In this book the protagonist (Peter) has the chance to go aboard an alien vessel and learn more about their mission to Earth, and at one point he describes a device that seems somewhat like a holodeck. It can create an incredibly realistic virtual reality which is extremely useful for fields like research and so forth, but which also proved dangerous when used for recreation. Some people would get so enmeshed in these machines that they'd refuse to come out, and so the use of them is strictly regulated by those facilities that have one.

MTIAA also had a better take on the idea of a "universal" translator, IMO. The translators were implanted directly into the subject's brain, presumably in the part which facilitates speech and hearing, and were thus able to translate an alien's language so the host could understand. You'd still hear the alien speaking its own language, but your brain would process it into yours via the translator. You'd also be able to understand gestural cues, like if the alien flaps his ears instead of smiling. Other more specific translators that have a narrower range are mentioned, as Broxholm (one of the alien protagonists) had an implant that allowed him to speak English and initially none of the other crew members could communicate with Peter until he got an implant, because Earth languages are not part of the translation system.