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Holodeck Technology - Does it really make sense?

Rett Mikhal, this is all fiction so have it anyway you like but you're making a mess out of physics to accommodate bad writing from Voyager. This is the series that gave us, "faster than light, no left or right" - contradicted by all three series before it. It's a lot easier to disregard some bad writing than turn generally-accepted treknology (and physics) upside-down IMO.
 
That was just one direct instance. I'm positive there are more, I just can't recall them.

How else does the food appear in the replicator?
 
That was just one direct instance. I'm positive there are more, I just can't recall them.

How else does the food appear in the replicator?

The food is assembled from raw matter. Otherwise, your replicated cheeseburger comes at an energy cost comparable to what our entire present civilization consumes in a day. Don't you think that is just a tad inefficient? :lol:

Even if you can accept such enormous energy expenditure on a starship, what about in people's homes? Home replicators were established in several episodes across at least two different series. Do you suppose the average home has a warp core in the basement? Make no mistake - that's the kind of energy you are looking at if these things make matter from energy.
 
How else does the food appear in the replicator?
Most likely there are big bins in the Enterprise that hold basic organic and inorganic base stock for use by the replicator. If your request a juicy ribeye steak, the replicator will use a transporter "like" effect to assemble water, fat and proteins into the meat. Assemble calcium, phosphorus, sodium, and minerals into the bone. Of course it's also possible that what the replicator simply dishes up a replica of a piece of meat that has no relationship to anything that was bovine muscle tissue.

You'd also be able to understand gestural cues, like if the alien flaps his ears instead of smiling
Riva, the deaf mute in the episode Loud as a Whisper, used a gestural language, Picard was unable to understand him and order Data to research the language and translate for him (and the viewers).
 
As for the energy conversion, they state several times that's how the replicators work. Yes, you could argue it might be safer and possibly easier to just vaporize a fuel supply into instant energy than to use the antimatter reaction, but you have to realize that even carrying the densest material they could, they would run out of it real fast with the energy requirements they need. The Matter/Antimatter reaction lasts a long, long, long, long time, and you can store far more antimatter.

I never heard mention that the replicators make mass from energy and it certainly wouldn't make sense. I don't know if you understand just how much energy a gram of matter equates to. No way they work like that; they wouldn't be used except for dire necessities if they did.

Jawohl. Even if you did do that (for some, indiscernible, unfathomable reason) what you would have is ~40% of the mass in the form of gamma radiation. Not healthy for flowers or other living things.

The part about getting more energy from a matter/anti-matter reaction than a simple conversion of matter to energy is incorrect. The amount would be exactly the same.
Nein. Actually, far less. Antimatter reactors are lossy. As implied above, ~60% is lost to neutrinos, which are useless little creatures.

The energy contained within any given amount of matter is obviously equal to its rest mass, but the actual conversion process is not efficient (at least ideally efficient; it's hella efficient compared to the relativistic mass released in chemical reactions, which is miniscule, or released by fusion which is like ~1%, iirc).

Phasers do not turn mass into energy. If the mass of a person were turned into energy, the result would be an explosion equivalent to thousands of nuclear bombs.
Tell that to Voyager writers, who think antiprotons cure people.:p

T'Girl said:
Most likely there are big bins in the Enterprise that hold basic organic and inorganic base stock for use by the replicator. If your request a juicy ribeye steak, the replicator will use a transporter "like" effect to assemble water, fat and proteins into the meat. Assemble calcium, phosphorus, sodium, and minerals into the bone. Of course it's also possible that what the replicator simply dishes up a replica of a piece of meat that has no relationship to anything that was bovine muscle tissue.

Something I wonder, but would never care to make a study of to prove it, is whether genuinely novel items are often replicated. If not, one might be able to suppose that your "Earl Grey, hot" is queued up somewhere in bulk matter storage, and the transporter part of the cycle is actually de minimis, simply a method of making it available, removing impurities, and heating to specification--while the actual production of the requested item is done with more orthodox nanotechnology (a bioreactor of some type). Even odd foods need not be considered novel items, if the ingredients are ready (e.g., no one has ever ordered a peanut butter and banana sandwich, but hundreds of people have ordered peanut butter and hundreds of others have enjoyed bananas, and presumably yet others have felt the delights of bread and mayonnaise).

This would get rid of a lot of the BS involving the replicator. It would still involve the BS of the transporter, but that's a nigh-on insoluble problem.

On a final note, we should make no mistake--replicators aren't often counted as such (even by the silly crews when dealing with "real" nanites), but they are absolutely nanotechnology. Nearly perfected nanotechnology, in fact.
 
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suppose that your "Earl Grey, hot" is queued up somewhere in bulk matter storage, and the transporter part of the cycle is actually de minimis, simply a method of making it available

If you think about it, it makes absolutely no sense for the replicator to "create" water, if that's all you ask for. Instead of assembling two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, most likely the Enterprise simply has a rather large tank of water to draw from.
 
That was just one direct instance. I'm positive there are more, I just can't recall them.

How else does the food appear in the replicator?

The food is assembled from raw matter. Otherwise, your replicated cheeseburger comes at an energy cost comparable to what our entire present civilization consumes in a day. Don't you think that is just a tad inefficient?

Even if you can accept such enormous energy expenditure on a starship, what about in people's homes? Home replicators were established in several episodes across at least two different series. Do you suppose the average home has a warp core in the basement? Make no mistake - that's the kind of energy you are looking at if these things make matter from energy.

That is true, I didn't think of it like that. Also, looking back, they never expressly say the items can be turned into energy, just "meals". Perhaps its more in the vein of atomic rearrangement. Turn a lump of lead into a cheese sandwich by reconstructing it. What's interesting is in my sci-fi stories I write, that's how the food creators work because I didn't want them to have the power of E=mc^2 in every single ship. Maybe a few very advanced warheads. So I guess I was arguing against my own theory of how my own future technology works. Go me.

I always just assumed the ships of Star Trek use more energy than we could possibly dream of using.

The replicators, for all we know, could just take in air and turn it into whatever you ordered. Plus, as we all have witnessed and fantasized about, it's always healthy food and drink even if you order non-healthy things like chocolate sundaes and whiskey.

Going back to the original topic, the holodeck: For plant matter and other organic things that usually are not for consumption, the same technique for making people could be used with artificial sensory output. Food would still be replicated, but they make it sound like replicating things is quite easy so that's not so much of a stretch.

Good discussion, gentlemen.

suppose that your "Earl Grey, hot" is queued up somewhere in bulk matter storage, and the transporter part of the cycle is actually de minimis, simply a method of making it available

If you think about it, it makes absolutely no sense for the replicator to "create" water, if that's all you ask for. Instead of assembling two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, most likely the Enterprise simply has a rather large tank of water to draw from.

Well it does have a completely useless Water Turbine...

Edit: Wait... mayonnaise on a peanut butter and banana sandwich?
 
. . . Even if you did do that (for some, indiscernible, unfathomable reason) what you would have is ~40% of the mass in the form of gamma radiation. Not healthy for flowers or other living things.
Especially man-in-the-moon marigolds. ;)

. . . suppose that your "Earl Grey, hot" is queued up somewhere in bulk matter storage, and the transporter part of the cycle is actually de minimis, simply a method of making it available, removing impurities, and heating to specification--while the actual production of the requested item is done with more orthodox nanotechnology (a bioreactor of some type).
That was essentially the concept in TOS, only more primitive -- food was simply stored in concentrated form, reconstituted and delivered through an extensive dumbwaiter system. As David Gerrold remarked in The World of Star Trek, it made you wonder what's going on behind the walls of the Enterprise.
 
The TNG Tech Manual often refers to CHON storage (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen) because these four elements make up the huge bulk of organic building blocks. We are more water than anything else which as T'Girl pointed out, is composed of just hydrogen and oxygen.
 
To me, an engineer, the extremes they take with the holodeck in Star Trek are only to further script development. Everything in a holodeck would be a simulation parlayed into reality by light images, what a hologram is. You could act verbally but not truly physically with these images and characters. If you touched one your hand would pass through them. You could not leave the physical limits of the holodeck, in other words cliffs and streets do not extend forever. You would walk into a wall if you moved to far forward whether or not the image moved in sync since you would reach a physical limitation of the room size. You could not be shot and actually be injured by a bullet. It might be possible to be led to believe something so strongly that you could injure yourself but a hologram object or person could not injure you. It might be possible to integrate a limited amount of other sensations such as temperature and smell into the simulation but that would make the simulation even that much more complicated. I find these episodes based on a complete holodeck simulation, some with life and death, technologically totally absurd. I always considered Star Trek to hold a reasonable semblance to real technology and can live with the possibility of transporters and warp drive, but for some reason the extremes they take these holodeck episodes too just goes beyond bounds.
 
...Yet the idea of forcefields and absolute control of gravity is at the very heart of Star Trek technology. What else would one need for the holodecks as portrayed?

For my part, not only do I think that TNG holodecks are the barest minimum of what should be achievable by TOS-level tech, they're also less than what we're going to have within a century in the real world (although not executed with forcefield magic, of course). Never underestimate the power of the entertainment industry to drive technological advances.

If you want to look at something fantastically absurd, take the primitive spacesuits and spacecraft these 22nd-24th century folks have. Why did they bolt their advanced warp drive to such a piece of stone-age junk? Utterly unrealistic...

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you are by yourself in a holodeck as you walk it would be an illusion since you're not actually moving anywhere like on a treadmill, so you can cover endless distances on the holodeck and the environment would change accordingly.
 
To me, an engineer, the extremes they take with the holodeck in Star Trek are only to further script development. Everything in a holodeck would be a simulation parlayed into reality by light images, what a hologram is. You could act verbally but not truly physically with these images and characters. If you touched one your hand would pass through them. You could not leave the physical limits of the holodeck, in other words cliffs and streets do not extend forever. You would walk into a wall if you moved to far forward whether or not the image moved in sync since you would reach a physical limitation of the room size. You could not be shot and actually be injured by a bullet. It might be possible to be led to believe something so strongly that you could injure yourself but a hologram object or person could not injure you. It might be possible to integrate a limited amount of other sensations such as temperature and smell into the simulation but that would make the simulation even that much more complicated. I find these episodes based on a complete holodeck simulation, some with life and death, technologically totally absurd. I always considered Star Trek to hold a reasonable semblance to real technology and can live with the possibility of transporters and warp drive, but for some reason the extremes they take these holodeck episodes too just goes beyond bounds.

Well, from what I heard its near impossible to for the transporter to ever work, now do I believe it would take the combined energy of 5 stars to do it, no. The numbers put out by scientist who study this, are just as theoretical as the trek tech itself.(just my opinion). Now we all know that most scientist and theoretical physicists agree that with the right technology Warp drive is more than possible, the only problem is not knowing what it would do to the space behind it when you use it. Holodecks are out of this world with todays technology, I always say you never know. However, I believe future holodeck like entertainment might come in the form of a kind of matrix that you enter through a head gear piece, where you transfer your being into the mind of an animated character kinda like Avatar, but it feels and looks real.
 
I think the most unbelievable thing about the holodecks is their social impact. Hell, how many bajillions of hours do people spend playing MMOs or text-roleplaying or whatever? Humans love interactive storytelling. (I say this as a long-time MMO player. :))

I think holo-addiction would be a much, much bigger problem than it's made out to be in Star Trek. I would go so far as to say human society is probably doomed the second they mass-produce holodecks. Who wants to live in reality when we can reject it and substitute it with our own?

The only time anyone'd ever have to exit is to use the bathroom or eat. At least, I hope people'd actually leave the holodeck to go to the bathroom. :ack:

You definitely made the most important point regarding holo-addiction. How many recreational escape activities, drugs and alcohol has constantly been a concern in society.
 
Reg Barclay was essentially addicted to the holodeck, even had a relapse I believe, and it was implied that he was possibly rather "improper" with the Deanna and Crusher characters in his fantasy. You can't tell me he spent all day fencing LaForge's duplicate with his sword with that kind of tail floating around the holodeck.

Wasn't it also heavily implied in The Perfect Mate that Riker was going to go to the holodeck to "relieve" himself after Famke Jansen gave him blue balls? "Bridge, I'll be on the holodeck if you need me". I doubt he was going to go work off his sexual frustrations with a game of Parrises Squares.

Also, you can't judge every holodeck the same. During Encounter at Farpoint, it was presented as quite the technological novelty. In "11001001", the holodeck was upgraded by the Bynars and Picard and Riker made comments as to how realistic the simulation was compared to others they'd experienced. Later in the show, the simulations seem to be indistinguishable from real life, indeed convincing those trapped inside that it was. By the time of DS9, holodecks seem to be all the rage and common amongst the general population. This could be evidence for something like the modern day equivalent of a piece of technology being developed for the military or heavy industry and then latter trickling down to the average consumer.

Then stupid Voyager came along and made allusions to holodecks being around for about thirty five years previously (when Janeway was a child), so I dunno.
 
How do we know that we're not in a holodeck right now?

Because I watched Ship In A Bottle recentley and copied Barclay at the end, as I always do, by saying out loud "Computer: End Program".

We are still here. :rommie:

(The girlfriend looked at me very strangely at that!)

At first it was implied that the wall of a holodeck is something that you could run into. Like in Encounter at Farpoint when Data threw a rock at the holodeck wall causing the image to shimmer. However, this has since been abandoned, and you can see people standing greaters distances apart within the holodeck than the actual size of it.

He also did that in Ship In A Bottle to show Picard he'd never left the holodeck. I don't think the fact that the holodeck tricks you into seeing "people standing greater distances apart" negates the fact there is still a wall there. I don't think it was ever implied that you'd run into it either.
 
Wouldn't creating and dissolving matter in replicators, holodecks and transporters release lots of explosive radiation?

At least that's what I read from commentators on the subject.


When I think about it, as far TNG, I wonder why everyone was so fascinated with Data as an android, when with the holodeck, you could create characters with nearly the same type of A.I. technology?
 
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