Hit the road, Jack (Harkness), and don't you come back no more.

[Sci]

What he did was the only available choice he had.

I dunno about that. Amongst other things, he could have incited a popular revolt against the government by exposing his footage of the Cabinet meeting, and he could have forced UNIT to hand over their Project Indigo device to allow him to teleport onto whatever ship the 456 was using (since Indigo only required the user to think of the desired destination, not know its exact coordinates) and then bombed the thing from within.

 

[WillsBabe]

I want to see Jack again. They have taken his character to pretty dark places, and I like that. I've wanted to see that in a favourite character of mine for a long time. But I want to see him redeemed, or at least start the journey to redemption. I want to see him explore his choices and actions and where he is in his life. I'd like to see him explore that as a human being, not as an immortal man from the future. I'd really, really like him and the Doctor to have some conversations about what happened. I'd like that Doctor to be 10, but I'm not sure there's time for that.

 

[Starkers]

What he did was the only available choice he had.

I dunno about that. Amongst other things, he could have incited a popular revolt against the government by exposing his footage of the Cabinet meeting, and he could have forced UNIT to hand over their Project Indigo device to allow him to teleport onto whatever ship the 456 was using (since Indigo only required the user to think of the desired destination, not know its exact coordinates) and then bombed the thing from within.

Do we know the 456 were using a ship? They might have teleported from their planet. If they were using a ship do we know they had just one? What if they had a fleet of 50 ships and he blows up just one? Way to piss the 456 off further. Even if they had only one ship what if it was the size of a moon, the largest bomb Jack could have carried, even nuclear, might not have been sufficient to dent it.

Did project Indigo really allow the person to think where they wanted to go? Surely they needed a rough idea of the destination? Been a while since I've seen The Stolen Earth though.

And you're obsessed with causing a revolt. What good would it have done, really in the situation? Whoever replaced Green's government would have been faced with the same choices and likely might make the same decision. As well would there even be a revolt? I mean sure the parents of those 10% of kids would be pissed, but would the parents of the other 90% be outraged, or might they be relieved that their kids were going to be safe?

 

[The]

Good points, Starkers! I was agreeing with Sci's post. But, you're correct. There are a number of possibilities that would have negated Jack's ability to stop the conflict. Well reasoned, man...

 

[Starkers]

^Well that doesn't mean I'm right, or that Sci is wrong. Personally I think CoE works better if the 456 are an unstoppable force...well until Jack stops them at the end.

Actually I was wondering this earlier...would CoE have been even better if it had been a standalone story completely seperate from the Whoverse? One of the few things that let the series down is the fact that, in the end, we see the 456 off, that even though it comes at the cost of a sacrifice by Jack, the resolution does seem a trifle easy. But if there hadn't been a need to leave Earth safe at the end...well what kind of ending might we have had?

1. Earth calls the 456's bluff and the 456 actually sod off
2. Earth calls the 456's bluff and the 456 retaliate killion millions/billions/possibly even destroying the world.
3. Earth gives in, gives the 456 10% of our kids and the 456 leave...with a parting message. 'We will return!'

Personally option 1 would have been unsatisfying, 2 a bit too grim, whilst 3 leaves all sorts of future possibilities, what would the earth left behind be like? Maybe it's the writer in me but I can evisage all sorts of possibilities. Hell you could set an entire series on a post 456 earth.

 

[Sci]

What he did was the only available choice he had.

I dunno about that. Amongst other things, he could have incited a popular revolt against the government by exposing his footage of the Cabinet meeting, and he could have forced UNIT to hand over their Project Indigo device to allow him to teleport onto whatever ship the 456 was using (since Indigo only required the user to think of the desired destination, not know its exact coordinates) and then bombed the thing from within.

Do we know the 456 were using a ship? They might have teleported from their planet.

If they had teleportation abilities that powerful, they would not have needed the governments of the Earth to herd children into one particular area -- they'd be able to just teleport them all away whenever they liked.

If they were using a ship do we know they had just one? What if they had a fleet of 50 ships and he blows up just one? Way to piss the 456 off further.

There's a possibility, but I doubt that a fleet of 50 ships could have been present in Earth orbit or nearby without eventually being detected. If nothing else, the heat energy given off by those ships -- and all starships would need to expel heat energy -- would give them away.

And, frankly, I think that if the 456 had more than one ship nearby, they once again wouldn't have needed the governments of the world to herd children for them -- they'd just be able to do the job themselves.

Even if they had only one ship what if it was the size of a moon,

Can't be that large; it would have been affecting the tides if it were.

Did project Indigo really allow the person to think where they wanted to go? Surely they needed a rough idea of the destination? Been a while since I've seen The Stolen Earth though.

The dialogue was pretty clear about the user only needing to think about their intended destination.

And you're obsessed with causing a revolt. What good would it have done, really in the situation?

It would have gotten rid of a treasonous government that deserved to be overthrown for betraying its own people.

Whoever replaced Green's government would have been faced with the same choices and likely might make the same decision.

No one who replaced Green would have dared make the same decision that had led to a revolt.

As well would there even be a revolt? I mean sure the parents of those 10% of kids would be pissed, but would the parents of the other 90% be outraged, or might they be relieved that their kids were going to be safe?

Of course they'd be outraged -- because if they can do it to their children, they can do it to any.

And bear in mind that 10% is a huge number; it's roughly the percentage of the U.S. population that is black, and goodness knows that was more than a large enough number to cause major social problems for their oppressors during the civil rights movement. And there's no way to know who those 10% would be from most people's POV. And what if the 456 come back and want 20%? Or 50%?

People would recognize that kind of treason and revolt. At the very minimum, there would be enough of an outcry that the PM wouldn't be able to institute his plan to kidnap 10% of the country's children.

ETA:

As for those three options for structuring the story... I tend to think that option number 3 would have made for a better story, both in terms of drama and in terms of the message being sent.

 

[Starkers]

^Well at least we agree on something

By the way, I'm offering alternative hypothesies nothing more, because I at least accept that there are alternatives to how things might have panned out rather than just your way or the highway

 

[Bones2]

^Well that doesn't mean I'm right, or that Sci is wrong. Personally I think CoE works better if the 456 are an unstoppable force...well until Jack stops them at the end.

Actually I was wondering this earlier...would CoE have been even better if it had been a standalone story completely seperate from the Whoverse? One of the few things that let the series down is the fact that, in the end, we see the 456 off, that even though it comes at the cost of a sacrifice by Jack, the resolution does seem a trifle easy. But if there hadn't been a need to leave Earth safe at the end...well what kind of ending might we have had?

Yes it does seem a trifle easy, and that's been the problem with pretty much every Doctor Who season closer as well. Of course, if you do have a deus ex machina sitting in your pocket, then the way the balance things out is the have the cost be a personal loss, as was the case here. But I get the feeling the story was started with the idea of the loss first, and then worked backwards. But I've already made it clear about what I think that the weaknesses of the story are.

And of course, a big thing has to be that you care about the characters, which I just didn't about Jack (or Ianto).

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

3. Earth gives in, gives the 456 10% of our kids and the 456 leave...with a parting message. 'We will return!'

Personally option 1 would have been unsatisfying, 2 a bit too grim, whilst 3 leaves all sorts of future possibilities, what would the earth left behind be like? Maybe it's the writer in me but I can evisage all sorts of possibilities. Hell you could set an entire series on a post 456 earth.

I do think that sort of story has enormous possibilities. I'm not sure that's what I would have wanted to see in this context. However, I can easily imagine a great dystopian future novel where we see the aftermath of a world where the government made a controversial decision to kill many innocents to save the rest of the planet.

It would have gotten rid of a treasonous government that deserved to be overthrown for betraying its own people.

I can't argue with that. I kept praying the whole time for someone to put a bullet in that PM's brain. In fact, for most of episodes 4 & 5, I thought that was exactly what would happen at the end. I thought that we were going to find out at the end that that hard-ass assassin chick secretly had a child that she gave up for adoption years ago. So once the dust settled at the end, she would mete out the lethal vigilante justice that he so richly deserved.

Hey, here's an irony for you: For some reason, even though I'm the one that started this thread, I'm not able to access the 1st page of it. Every time I click on the link, I get redirected to a Googlesearch page that tells me that the URL doesn't exist. Yet page 2 works just fine.

So I'm flying a bit blind here. However, it seems that I'm the only one who wants to say to Jack, "Don't you come back no more." I understand that he made the only good choice left available to him when he sacrificed his grandson at the end of "Children of Earth" to save the rest of the planet from the 456. However, regardless of how justified his actions were, it still hurts too much to watch because it wasn't really his sacrifice to make. I think it's taken the character into too dark of a direction for him to recover.

Part of the problem is that I don't think Jack ever really worked as a dramatic character prior to this. He was always at his best when he was the fun, dashing rogue on Doctor Who or occasionally on some of the more lighthearted moments of Torchwood. But that tone is so totally incompatible with the tone of "Children of Earth," I just can't see where the character can go from here. (Well, I can see a few options but none are ones that I'm interested in exploring.)

Oddly enough, I think it wouldn't have bothered me so much if it has been another character who had done the same thing. Owen was such a dour, self-loathing wretch to begin with, this would have been just another notch on his angst-meter. The Doctor has had a pretty strong dark side ever since the show 1st relaunched in 2005. I'm convinced he's done far worse back during the Time War.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Well I still stick to brining him back by having him meet the 11th Doctor during his 2 year memory wipe. You'd get to see a happier more carefree Jack, and also see that it was the Doctor who fucked him up so bad in the first place.

That would be a great bit or irony. In fact, perhaps for a while there, one of Jack's partners might have been River Song.

I'm not even sure Torchwood as a whole should come back. If it does, I think it should be done as a new spinoff with an all-new cast, like Torchwood: Scotland or something. Perhaps Jack or Gwen could come back as an occasional consultant but that would be it.

 

[Starkers]

Well I still stick to brining him back by having him meet the 11th Doctor during his 2 year memory wipe. You'd get to see a happier more carefree Jack, and also see that it was the Doctor who fucked him up so bad in the first place.

That would be a great bit or irony. In fact, perhaps for a while there, one of Jack's partners might have been River Song.

I'm not even sure Torchwood as a whole should come back. If it does, I think it should be done as a new spinoff with an all-new cast, like Torchwood: Scotland or something. Perhaps Jack or Gwen could come back as an occasional consultant but that would be it.

The difficulty with brining Torchwood back is making it anywhere near as good as CoE. That said I'd rather they had a go than just walked away.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

^Pretty much the same daunting task that I believe is looming over the makers of the next Batman movie.

 

[TerriO]

Personally, Jack needs to come back to a Torchwood that's gone on without him, with Gwen in the leadership position, and she needs to make him earn a spot back on the team. Redemption cannot possibly come easy on this and still have it work.

 

[RoJoHen]

Personally, Jack needs to come back to a Torchwood that's gone on without him, with Gwen in the leadership position, and she needs to make him earn a spot back on the team. Redemption cannot possibly come easy on this and still have it work.

I agree. Frankly, I thought he was let off the hook way too easy during his return at the beginning of Season 2.

"You left us, Jack!" *shove* *glare* "Okay, I'm over it. You're out leader again."