Hey, I never noticed that before....

[dupersuper]

And Spock never had a human sister either until recently.

There's not telling you friends about a relative and then there's no historical record of a relative. The idea that his then 70 something son wouldn't be mentioned when he took off to Romulus and was feared a traitor and Sarek died is...a bit much, even for Spock.

I never have gotten the idea then or now that Saavik screwed a brainless Spock clone. I kind of sort of see why people might think that now, but no. Just no.

Then how did he survive the ponn far?

 

[XCV330]

Then how did he survive the ponn far?

I'd prefer not speculate, but to hell with it. Since Tuvok resolved his own issues with custom holo porn, I assume even Brainless Spock Clone could have figured out how to date Rosey Palm.

If it's beyond physical and goes into that souls-in-pottery-jars mysticism of Vulcanians, that's easy: Spock Clone doesn't have a katra.

He doesn't right? I mean if he did, that mean's everyone involved in the rescue and the ceremony murdered him to stuff Spock 1.0 in his body.

 

[Warped9]

In “Amok Time” Spock says that he hoped he would be spared pon farr. Maybe because not all Vulcans experience it and/or because he wonders if his mixed breeding might spare him. No luck. But the implication is this is the first time Spock is experiencing this and he is definitely no teenager or young adult.

However, we also know Spock was telepathically bonded with T’Pring at a young age. We didn’t get all the details of that, but maybe a Vulcan experiences a biological urge to bond, long before they actually physically mate.

I think they messed up what the resurrected young Spock was experiencing. It wasn’t the urge to mate at that young age, but the urge to bond. So Saavik took it upon herself to telepathically bond with Spock to pacify what he was experiencing. I don’t believe they did the wild thing.

Whatever, it’s all I’ve got.

 

[Commishsleer]

In “Amok Time” Spock says that he hoped he would be spared pon farr. Maybe because not all Vulcans experience it and/or because he wonders if his mixed breeding might spare him. No luck. But the implication is this is the first time Spock is experiencing this and he is definitely no teenager or young adult.

However, we also know Spock was telepathically bonded with T’Pring at a young age. We didn’t get all the details of that, but maybe a Vulcan experiences a biological urge to bond, long before they actually physically mate.

I think they messed up what the resurrected young Spock was experiencing. It wasn’t the urge to mate at that young age, but the urge to bond. So Saavik took it upon herself to telepathically bond with Spock to pacify what he was experiencing. I don’t believe they did the wild thing.

Whatever, it’s all I’ve got.

Saavik said it was pon farr

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Then how did he survive the ponn far?

The whole idea that a Vulcan will die if he doesn't get laid comes from dialogue in "Amok Time." McCoy looks at the medical readings, makes assumptions, and extrapolates that if this continues unabated (ahem), it will kill Spock. But McCoy has never seen this illness before, to say nothing of seeing it run its course. The hormonal surge might peak and then fade away without intervention, or Spock might have to let off steam on his own when he finally accepts that the real thing won't be happening.

And yes, Spock tells Kirk he'll die, but what condition is Spock in emotionally, to be making reliable statements? Maybe he just wants to get married very, very badly, and will say whatever it takes. He's not himself at the time.

 

[Commishsleer]

The whole idea that a Vulcan will die if he doesn't get laid comes from dialogue in "Amok Time." McCoy looks at the medical readings, makes assumptions, and extrapolates that if this continues unabated (ahem), it will kill Spock. But McCoy has never seen this illness before, to say nothing of seeing it run its course. The hormonal surge might peak and then fade away without intervention, or Spock might have to let off steam on his own when he finally accepts that the real thing won't be happening.

And yes, Spock tells Kirk he'll die, but what condition is Spock in emotionally, to be making reliable statements? Maybe he just wants to get married very, very badly, and will say whatever it takes. He's not himself at the time.

I think they said that Vulcans would die in VOY too but you know no-one did.
Still think that was why Saavik told David to get lost.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Still think that was why Saavik told David to get lost.

Being a Vulcan kind of paints you into a corner. You have to be very dour and reserved all the time. It leads to an incredibly drab existence.

Maybe Saavik saw Genesis Spock as a rare, brief opportunity to cut loose and live it up. While acting serious and glum about it, of course. "If we must, we must!"

Spock wasn't going to die. But he was available, and what does David know?

 

[David cgc]

In “Amok Time” Spock says that he hoped he would be spared pon farr. Maybe because not all Vulcans experience it and/or because he wonders if his mixed breeding might spare him. No luck. But the implication is this is the first time Spock is experiencing this and he is definitely no teenager or young adult.

More than that, the implication in "Amok Time" is that it only happens to a Vulcan once at all. The idea that pon farr happened repeatedly was only introduced in "The Cloud Minders," probably from someone conflating one of the examples Spock gives of mating drives in nature, "The giant eelbirds of Regulus Five, once each eleven years they must return to the caverns where they hatched," and that Spock and T'Pring were betrothed when they were seven.

Either way, it happening to Spock unusually late helps give background on T'Pring giving up on ever fulfilling her arranged marriage and finding someone else. As for why Spock was so much younger in TSFS, I'm sure there are numerous environmental factors involved. Personally, I assume that he had another growth-spurt and leaped over his pon farrs before he got all blood-fevered up and on the edge of death.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

More than that, the implication in "Amok Time" is that it only happens to a Vulcan once at all. The idea that pon farr happened repeatedly was only introduced in "The Cloud Minders," probably from someone conflating one of the examples Spock gives of mating drives in nature, "The giant eel birds of Regulus Five, once each eleven years they must return to the caverns where they hatched," and that Spock and T'Pring were betrothed when they were seven.

That has been my belief for ages. "The Cloud Minders" line was written without ever going back and checking the script from "Amok Time." And they got it wrong.

In the original idea, pon farr would start a Vulcan's married life off with a bang. But the third season mix up implies that he's only going to have sex at seven year intervals. That's a very different and very unfortunate thing for Vulcans to have gotten stuck with.

 

[Commishsleer]

Stupid David Gerrold

 

[Ssosmcin]

More than that, the implication in "Amok Time" is that it only happens to a Vulcan once at all. The idea that pon farr happened repeatedly was only introduced in "The Cloud Minders," probably from someone conflating one of the examples Spock gives of mating drives in nature, "The giant eelbirds of Regulus Five, once each eleven years they must return to the caverns where they hatched," and that Spock and T'Pring were betrothed when they were seven.

Either way, it happening to Spock unusually late helps give background on T'Pring giving up on ever fulfilling her arranged marriage and finding someone else. As for why Spock was so much younger in TSFS, I'm sure there are numerous environmental factors involved. Personally, I assume that he had another growth-spurt and leaped over his pon farrs before he got all blood-fevered up and on the edge of death.

Thank you! I've said this for years. The "every seven year" thing was never even hinted at in "Amok Time" but I think it was discussed behind the scenes ("now he can screw like the rest of us"). Roddenberry seemed to support it and that's most likely where Freiberger and Singer got it from. However, the episode itself paints at as a one time deal. And Spock definitely didn't seem to have gone through it a bunch of times previously.

I feel like Pon Farr is a thing that happens if you don't consummate your telepathic bond with your assigned mate on time. If Spock were on Vulcan and just did it on his 18th birthday or something, would the "ancient drives" drag him back to Vulcan or would it have been accomplished already? Does Sarek have to engage in combat and have violent sex with Amanda?

 

[Noname Given]

That gets really squicky with my head canon that Spock is a clone of Sarek...

^^^
No, no, no...the dead Romulan Commander (Keras in fannon) of the BoP in TOS S1 - "Balance of Terror" is a clone of Sarek (or possibly vice-versa)...Yes, the Romulans DID have a Vulcan Ambassador as a deep planted spy in the Federation it seems.

 

[Warped9]

Saavik said it was pon farr

So? We can call so many things into question why not the writing for this character?

 

[Commander Troi]

Regarding the majority age of Vulcans, there is this from TAS Yesteryear (emphasis added.) Make of it what you will.:

SAREK: Soon you will undergo your test of adulthood in the desert. To survive for ten days without food, water or weapon on Vulcan's Forge will demand more of you than anything ever has.​

Spock is seven.

Having recently seen that ep, I saw it more like a Bar Mitzvah or any number of coming-of-age rituals all over the world, not as Legal Adult who now can marry.

 

[BK613]

Legal Adult who now can marry.

IIRC, originally, that's what becoming a bar mitzva/bat mitzva basically meant. Not surprising on the age when up until a century or so ago, common law held that the age of consent was 12 for girls and 14 for boys.

 

[Commander Troi]

Good point.

 

[Neopeius]

^^^
No, no, no...the dead Romulan Commander (Keras in fannon) of the BoP in TOS S1 - "Balance of Terror" is a clone of Sarek (or possibly vice-versa)...Yes, the Romulans DID have a Vulcan Ambassador as a deep planted spy in the Federation it seems.

¿Por qué no los dos?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Regarding Spock's Pon Farr, a theory I always liked* is that he was unconsciously suppressing his Pon Farr due to his reluctance to marry T'Pring, delaying it past its "usual" time. This is why he was more emotional in "The Cage" (smiling at the Talosian dancing plants, crying out "THE WOMEN!!!"). It's also why he says "I'd hoped I might be spared this" in "Amok Time" -- Spock was attributing the delay to his half-human heritage. After that, Spock's Pon Farrs followed the normal seven year cycle. On my ST timeline, Spock has Pon Farrs in 2274 (age 44), 2281 (age 51), 2288 (age 58), 2295 (age 65), and so on into the 24th Century. Conveniently, these all fall between the TOS movies.

The Pon Farr we see 17-year-old Spock undergoing in TSFS is a natural Pon Farr, without Spock's emotions interfering with the process. (Obviously, calculating a Vulcan's first Pon Farr is an inexact process, as if Spock could've known exactly when he was undergoing Pon Farr he would've arranged for personal leave well ahead of time.)

*I read this theory on some fan timeline or another, but it was years ago and I no longer remember which one it was.

 

[Henoch]

Regarding Spock's Pon Farr, a theory I always liked* is that he was unconsciously suppressing his Pon Farr due to his reluctance to marry T'Pring, delaying it past its "usual" time. This is why he was more emotional in "The Cage" (smiling at the Talosian dancing plants, crying out "THE WOMEN!!!"). It's also why he says "I'd hoped I might be spared this" in "Amok Time" -- Spock was attributing the delay to his half-human heritage. After that, Spock's Pon Farrs followed the normal seven year cycle. On my ST timeline, Spock has Pon Farrs in 2274 (age 44), 2281 (age 51), 2288 (age 58), 2295 (age 65), and so on into the 24th Century. Conveniently, these all fall between the TOS movies.

And about 7 years before Amok Time, Spock last saw botanist Leila Kalomi (~6 years before This Side of Paradise). Even if Spock was successful in blocking Pon Farr, maybe a little horniness leaked out which accounts for his acquaintance with Leila.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And about 7 years before Amok Time, Spock last saw botanist Leila Kalomi (~6 years before This Side of Paradise). Even if Spock was successful in blocking Pon Farr, maybe a little horniness leaked out which accounts for his acquaintance with Leila.

Yep, it works out to about that on my timeline, too. I have "Amok Time" occurring in December 2267 and "This Side of Paradise" happening in September 2267, so Spock met Leila Kalomi sometime in 2261. And yeah, if Spock was suppressing his Pon Farr then, then perhaps he was acting more emotional than usual, or possibly putting out pheromones that made him more attractive to Leila.

Back when I was incorporating more material from the novels, this coincidentally jibed with a reference in Margaret Wander Bonanno's Strangers From the Sky to Spock placing himself “on loan” to the MIT for participation in a botany project requiring the services of a Class A-7 computer expert. I think the novel said this was four years before the 2265 timeframe, putting it in 2261, but I don't seem to have my copy of Strangers From The Sky handy right now, so I can't readily check.

As best as I can remember, Leila Kalomi's name was not mentioned, but considering it was a botany project, it seemed like a plausible connection (and possibly even an intentional reference to TSOP and Leila for all I know. I unfortunately never got to ask Garamet about it before she passed).