President Worf is the only good surprise on this show in the last two years.
HEROES 3x13 "Dual" (Volume 3 Finale)
- Thread starter Dream
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Is there a difference between Bashing a show and being mightily disappointed with a show? I ask because it seems like it's getting foggy here. I don't want to bash the show. There was a time I did like it but like I said, it doesn't even feel like Heroes anymore. It's not interesting, the dialog is stupid (My brother doesn't even watch the show except for a few episodes and said the same thing) and the cast isn't all that great. Everything is so messy and whatever premise it originally had seems to be gone. It's very disappointing. I still don't know if I'll be back in February, but we'll see.
Well, for a couple of reasons. Foremost being, what looks to be the main story, the Heroes banded together (or in smaller groups) as fugitives from the government and Nathan, has more story potential than the meandering unfocused mess which was Volume 3.
As far as I could tell, Volume 3 was about Nathan finding god, then wanting to give the formula to everyone to do good, right before he wanted to lock people up for having abilities. Because Nathan's now a bad guy because ... well just because. Meanwhile Sylar was striving to be a good guy - and we see Future Sylar is - because he learned to control his hunger, which Future Sylar gave to Peter; and for no reason to do with the plot whatsoever as it turns out because Peter had it for ten minutes before losing all his powers to Dad. In any case, turns out the hunger could be satisfied with an empathetic ability, but that didn't matter either, because Sylar really didn't want to be good anymore anyway, because they Company made him who he was. And Daphne raced about at the behest of Nathan's dad and put together a super group - with a big unexplored subplot about betraying Matt - so this super group could scowl from time to time and tip over lab tables in anger during the finale.
Or something. A mess.
The people who run this show seem to be aware that the last two Volumes were underwhelming. The ratings show it, the criticism has been scathing, and they've fired some folks, brought others back. But to my eye, at least, one of the things that made Volume 3 near incoherent and gave it that jerky random feel was that they appeared to be course correcting and cleaning up the mess right in the middle. It may be needed, but its not entertaining in the slightest. I also think they have the characters about where they want them, so they can move forward with a better story.
The show is built on strong enough a premise to turn it around if they're willing to do the hard work and make the hard decisions (cutting character fat). If not, it will be a not so gradual slide into cancellation.
I had to leave that forum because of that. The Threads were pretty much the. I see this movie being just like Nemesis. Dead on Arrival. It probably means I will enjoy it more because I don't give a rats ass about canon who how loud Spock gets. I just hope it's a good story.
I'd say two things make a difference. One, if the product hasn't even come out yet, like Star Trek XI or Stargate Universe and people are judging something they haven't seen, it's bashing. Two, if the thought is well articulated and thought out, even if you don't agree, it's criticism. If it's just an incindiary half-formed sentence like "Abrams sucks!" it's simple bashing.
Hermiod's Rules to Save Heroes:
- No Depowering - Ever! : You give a character a power and can't think of a reason why they wouldn't use it to solve a problem ? Tough. You wrote yourself in to a corner, write yourself out of it. Kill the character off before you depower them. As a side rule, no resetting Peter or Sylar. Once they've got an ability, they've got it.
- Make Claire Useful : Okay, short of sticking an adamantium skeleton in her, she's not quite Wolverine but her dad is HRG. She should learn how to make use of her powers from him and cut out all the Father/Daughter angst crap.
- Keep Time Travel to a Minimum : Not letting Hiro use his power breaks the first rule of Saving Heroes but just write in a consequence to doing it. You've already got two. He said in season one that travelling back in time risked causing a "rift" and he realised later that doing so just makes things worse so have him use it sparingly, more like he did with "killing" Ando earlier this season.
- Keep Daphne : Heroes doesn't have a lot of likeable female characters right now. Promote her to series regular.
- Settle on Sylar Being a Villain : The X-Men had Magneto, so the Heroes need Sylar - a villain it takes all of them to fight.
- Band the Heroes Together : They all know each other now and soon they'll know that the government is coming after them. Strength in numbers. Angela Petrelli = Professor Xavier. This show is already a rip-off of the X-Men, I say go with it.
- Smaller Stories : Not everything has to be about saving the world. Saving one life might make for a more interesting story. Also there have got to be loads of minor villains out there who are using their powers for personal, criminal gain and need to be stopped.
- Give Villains Reasons for What They Do : Even if it's something as simple as Doctor Doom's honest belief that the world would be better if he ran it.
- Don't Fall in to the Good Powers/Bad Powers Trap : Don't make all the guys who can shoot fire or tear a person in half bad guys and don't make all the guys who can heal the sick or read minds good guys. This isn't Star Wars.
I don't think any of the above rules are hard to follow at all.
- No Depowering - Ever! : You give a character a power and can't think of a reason why they wouldn't use it to solve a problem ? Tough. You wrote yourself in to a corner, write yourself out of it. Kill the character off before you depower them. As a side rule, no resetting Peter or Sylar. Once they've got an ability, they've got it.
- Make Claire Useful : Okay, short of sticking an adamantium skeleton in her, she's not quite Wolverine but her dad is HRG. She should learn how to make use of her powers from him and cut out all the Father/Daughter angst crap.
- Keep Time Travel to a Minimum : Not letting Hiro use his power breaks the first rule of Saving Heroes but just write in a consequence to doing it. You've already got two. He said in season one that travelling back in time risked causing a "rift" and he realised later that doing so just makes things worse so have him use it sparingly, more like he did with "killing" Ando earlier this season.
- Keep Daphne : Heroes doesn't have a lot of likeable female characters right now. Promote her to series regular.
- Settle on Sylar Being a Villain : The X-Men had Magneto, so the Heroes need Sylar - a villain it takes all of them to fight.
- Band the Heroes Together : They all know each other now and soon they'll know that the government is coming after them. Strength in numbers. Angela Petrelli = Professor Xavier. This show is already a rip-off of the X-Men, I say go with it.
- Smaller Stories : Not everything has to be about saving the world. Saving one life might make for a more interesting story. Also there have got to be loads of minor villains out there who are using their powers for personal, criminal gain and need to be stopped.
- Give Villains Reasons for What They Do : Even if it's something as simple as Doctor Doom's honest belief that the world would be better if he ran it.
- Don't Fall in to the Good Powers/Bad Powers Trap : Don't make all the guys who can shoot fire or tear a person in half bad guys and don't make all the guys who can heal the sick or read minds good guys. This isn't Star Wars.
I don't think any of the above rules are hard to follow at all.
I have no problem with the haters. If everyone loved a show that I was watching it would be boring. They keep things interesting.
AGREED on so many levels, they should lay off the world thing until the final season and then make it epic. I was lead to believe this chapter would see a group of heroes face off against villians but we didn't really get the epic battle I was hoping for.
These all sound like good ideas. I might add a few:
No prescience. This pattern where every volume has someone go to/see the future, and thus the crisis they have to prevent, is getting old. Isaac is out of drawings, right? And Hiro is depowered. Preferably, something should keep Daphne/Ando from going into the future to see what horrors may be. The audience is not stupid. If you write a coherent story, it will be pretty obvious how badly things will turn out if the Heroes are unsuccessful. And especially stop using prescient visions/drawings to tell the Heroes what they need to do next. It's deus ex machina of the worst kind.
Expand the world! Sometimes it feels like the characters occupy a world made up of about 20 people. Don't be afraid to tweak the cast from time to time, and have characters pass in and out of the story on a regular basis. Just don't be stupid about it. I thought Isaac and Simone were handled relatively well. Peter's Irish girlfriend? Not so well. Poor girl, stuck in a future that will never be...
More (credible) villians. Sylar's cool and all, but the other villains from this season were pretty useless. I expected a volume called "Villains" to focus on the Heroes stopping a nearly-unstoppable band of powerful, credible villains. Knox was interesting but got very little attention. Flint got most of the airtime, only to prove he was a brainless brute. Arthur didn't work for me--I don't know if it was the actor or what, he just came off very one-note, and not as interesting as Angela in terms of being a scheming power player.
Keep the Heroes together! This business where they come together once or twice a season and then go their separate ways has to stop. When will they figure out they need each other in order to survive and actually do good in the world? Hopefully in volume 4...
The "villains" of chapter three were pretty underutilized. Sort of like how the "generations" last year didn't amount to much.
It'd be like instead of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the show was called Star Trek: Holosuite, named after something they only use once or twice a year.
It'd be like instead of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the show was called Star Trek: Holosuite, named after something they only use once or twice a year.
We don't hate it. It's because we like the show that we criticize it. It used to be something good, and we're upset to see how it's become a mere shadow of its former self. Especially when all of the show's problems are incredibly easy to fix.
For the next part "Fugitives" all the main characters will be on the run for two episodes before getting caught. They will be pardoned by President Worf by the third episode right before they find out a meteor is going to hit Earth in one week.
I sort of watched, though I was distracted by the new Brands' bio of FDR. When century old news is more interesting, well, there's a problem. The show isn't interesting enough to bother discussing much. But I can't help but wonder why anyone would esteem Peter's judgment so highly they wouldn't wonder if Nathan wasn't right. It's the old 4400 dilemma---If everyone has abilities, they're still equal, and if no one has abilities, they're still equal. It's the in-between state that's a problem. The 4400 series ducked deciding the issue just because it was dragging everything out (til it has to be finished in paperback no less!) But at least The 4400 knew that there was an interesting problem posed by the metaphor of superpowers.
This bugged the hell out of me last night. Nathan acted like he didn't have powers the entire show. He could have easily have flown out of that building on his own power. How the hell is Nathan going to hide this from the government? Every "hero" (I use that term loosely on this show) he captured can tell the government about his powers. He'll deny it but many of the "heroes" know this fact and Nathan is the brother of Peter. So where there's smoke, there's fire.
QFT.
I'm not bashing just to bash it. I used to love this show. I thought it was FANTASTIC TV...but...seriously, it's like all of the writers checked out and just expect people to tune in and so it doesn't matter.
And that's incredibly disappointing.
I'm just so disappointed in this show. It used to be fun, smart, surprising, and now...it's just...
...it's one of those relationships that was AWESOME at the beginning but then as you got to know the person you really what you liked is no longer there.
Bleh.
I'd agree to all of Hermiod's suggestions except keeping Daphne. I think Brea Grant's a very, very limited actor and Daphne and Parkman generate no heat at all. Elle was the one to keep. So was Eden, she was awesome. They both had some neat redemption arcs, plus Kristen Bell and Norah Zehetner were good actors. I'd like to see a new female that's got some complexity, a young Angela Petrelli. Daphne and Jessica/Nikki/Tracy/Ali should go. I think making Claire an HRG in training has been the best, most useful way to evolve that character. I hope Fugitives expands on that.
I'll add two more:
If There's No Plot Twist--That's Okay So many people switched sides and did other inexplicable things just to create the Oh Shit! episode capper. Not every episode needs one, sometimes a story can just end.
Make Powers Metaphoric Again Season 1 powers said a lot about the person. The conflict of being SuperMom vs. BitchOnWheelsSurvivor. Flying above everyone else to gain power. Turning invisible to fall off the grid from the Company. Persuading people to do your will because you're a young, sexy girl who can get what she wants, yet doesn't know what she wants. The powers meant more than cool pyrotechnics.
One more:
It's Been Three Years, Let's Tie Up The Confidence Issues. We know HRG loves Claire, so let's not see another "You weren't there for me/I was trying to protect you" argument. Let's never again have Peter ask what his purpose is or have Hiro wonder if he's a good hero. And never have Sylar question his ability for good. He loves being a killer. Let's leave it at that. Those season 1 issues should be resolved by mid-season three.
I'll add two more:
If There's No Plot Twist--That's Okay So many people switched sides and did other inexplicable things just to create the Oh Shit! episode capper. Not every episode needs one, sometimes a story can just end.
Make Powers Metaphoric Again Season 1 powers said a lot about the person. The conflict of being SuperMom vs. BitchOnWheelsSurvivor. Flying above everyone else to gain power. Turning invisible to fall off the grid from the Company. Persuading people to do your will because you're a young, sexy girl who can get what she wants, yet doesn't know what she wants. The powers meant more than cool pyrotechnics.
One more:
It's Been Three Years, Let's Tie Up The Confidence Issues. We know HRG loves Claire, so let's not see another "You weren't there for me/I was trying to protect you" argument. Let's never again have Peter ask what his purpose is or have Hiro wonder if he's a good hero. And never have Sylar question his ability for good. He loves being a killer. Let's leave it at that. Those season 1 issues should be resolved by mid-season three.
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What a disappointing first half of the Season...
This episode was average at best.
And I thought Peter was the stupid Petrelli brother. But no...Nathan clearly wins in the stupidity fight.
This might have actually been an excellent episode if Peter had planted a bullet in his brothers thick scull. Or had let him burn.
If only they could hire Hermiod
This episode was average at best.
And I thought Peter was the stupid Petrelli brother. But no...Nathan clearly wins in the stupidity fight.
This might have actually been an excellent episode if Peter had planted a bullet in his brothers thick scull. Or had let him burn.
If only they could hire Hermiod
Because it's Peter. Future Peter is Nathan's brother just as much as present Peter. Peter and Nathan--at least as presented until this volume--were willing to die for one another. Peter shooting him should have caused severe psychological problems and trust issues for Nathan. With Ando and Hiro, Hiro wasn't sure what he saw in the future. Nathan's pretty sure that Peter shot him. That should have been a major focus. No way around it.
That depends on if Nathan is going to be the frontman of the operation or someone behind the scenes. He might not rat out Claire, Peter and his mother, but expose everyone else.
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