Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.
- Thread starter Jayson1
- Start date
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Hmm.
A lying, scheming, self-obsessed, infantile ****** maybe, but I'm not sure he's an idiot...
Hmm.
A lying, scheming, self-obsessed, infantile ****** maybe, but I'm not sure he's an idiot...
When has Q ever told a flat-out lie?
^the fact that you use the words 'flat-out' is already part of the answer, imho 
I wouldn't call Q a liar, but he's usually not forthcoming about his ulterior motives and then tells something that might, or might not, be true.
I wouldn't call Q a liar, but he's usually not forthcoming about his ulterior motives and then tells something that might, or might not, be true.
This has never explicitly shown to have been the case.
Again, this has never occurred on-screen and is only your own interpretation.
A post-scarcity society does not imply that Humanity has devolved into a culture of leeches. People work to better themselves and Humanity, which is pretty much the opposite of acting as a leech, actually.
I always got the feeling that, regardless of money situation on DS9, the Replimat on DS9 was either cheap or free, which is why it was always so crowded.
DS9 was owned by the Bajorans and only administered by the Federation. Regardless of the rules ran by the Federation, the station it was clear that the station had a monetary system in place (Latinum). The Bajoran government had money also, the Lita.
Assuming that the Federation was a money-less society (there's one episode where Sisko threatens Quark with charging rent which implies Quark is getting away rent free to keep him on the station, or space on DS9 was free), it's very possible that the Federation provides a stipend for the Starfleet personnel out of Frontier (as Julian puts it.) They see how much a Bajoran Major, probably all the ranks, make and has it's Federation Credits with a value compared to other forms of money (with Gold-Pressed Latinum being the gold-standard) as it is. Each Federation citizen on the station gets a stipend based on their jobs and are encouraged to participate in the local economy.
The Federation probably has a stockpile of Gold-pressed Latinum which it uses to back it's currency.
So everyone probably does have some form of Federation Credit, but it's possible that money is worthless useless on most Federation planets. It's useful for Starfleet personnel to have money so they can spend it out on Non-Federation planets. It could be used to explain why, even though the Federation is a money-less society, Starfleet personnel have money to spend.
Assuming that the Federation was a money-less society (there's one episode where Sisko threatens Quark with charging rent which implies Quark is getting away rent free to keep him on the station, or space on DS9 was free), it's very possible that the Federation provides a stipend for the Starfleet personnel out of Frontier (as Julian puts it.) They see how much a Bajoran Major, probably all the ranks, make and has it's Federation Credits with a value compared to other forms of money (with Gold-Pressed Latinum being the gold-standard) as it is. Each Federation citizen on the station gets a stipend based on their jobs and are encouraged to participate in the local economy.
The Federation probably has a stockpile of Gold-pressed Latinum which it uses to back it's currency.
So everyone probably does have some form of Federation Credit, but it's possible that money is worthless useless on most Federation planets. It's useful for Starfleet personnel to have money so they can spend it out on Non-Federation planets. It could be used to explain why, even though the Federation is a money-less society, Starfleet personnel have money to spend.
This is more or less the conclusion I also arrive at. Within the Federation, there is no such thing as money. But when Federation citizens interact with non-Federation entities, the United Federation of Planets provides Federation Credits for use of Starfleet personnel, and likely any ordinary Federation citizen. Bajor had the Lita, Ferenginar (and many other worlds) used Latinum, the Klingon Empire used Darseks, the Cardassian Union used Leks.
To me, the real question is what form the exchange rate would look like when the UFP had to guarantee Federation Credits against, say, Klingon Darseks. As the Federation didn't use currency in a literal context, the exchange rate for Federation Credits would probably be something that would be routinely re-negotiated between the Federation Council and the Klingon High Council. Perhaps with the destruction of Praxis, the Federation provided energy subsidies in some form to offset the exchange rate between Federation Credits and Klingon Darseks.
The Bank of Bolias would imply that each world would have it's own Bank. (The Bank of Earth, the Bank of Vulcan, the Bank or Andoria). Each has a a stockpile of Gold Press Latinum (probably around 1,000 Bars of Gold Press Latinum) which can be used to exchange for what ever form of money you have.
So if you're heading out to DS9, you stop by the Bank of what ever planet your own and make an exchange of your useless Federation Credits.
So if you're heading out to DS9, you stop by the Bank of what ever planet your own and make an exchange of your useless Federation Credits.
Given the sloppy security on the Bank of Bolias, it does imply the Federation wasn't too concerned about the money until it got robbed.
The only case we've seen Federation Credits being used is in an official negotiation on TNG "The Price". I don't think individual Federation citizens hold any amount of Federation Credits in any sort of personal account. Rather they seem to be a form of currency that the government of the United Federation of Planets uses when interacting with foreign entities.
It's hard to say if the average Federation Citizen would have access to any money or not, since we hasn't really seen anything outside of Starfleet.
The only real thing we have is Jake's claim to not have any money to buy the auction, but Quark had no issue with him hanging around, which I can't see him doing if Jake couldn't pay.
It's possible that each citizen of the Federation had a bank account to use on Non-Federation Worlds. It's also as likely a Federation Citizen leaving for the frontier gets a minor amount of credits to use when travelling. Given the bank robbery, I like to think it's former, but I could very easily be wrong.
The only real thing we have is Jake's claim to not have any money to buy the auction, but Quark had no issue with him hanging around, which I can't see him doing if Jake couldn't pay.
It's possible that each citizen of the Federation had a bank account to use on Non-Federation Worlds. It's also as likely a Federation Citizen leaving for the frontier gets a minor amount of credits to use when travelling. Given the bank robbery, I like to think it's former, but I could very easily be wrong.
We might not have seen Federation "cash" so to speak but we have seen them buy stuff and actually pay for it. I can recall several scenes in Quark's were you had someone like Bashir or O'brien give Quark their thumb print on his little device. That sort of indicates that everyone at least has a seperate account and they don't just drawl money from one big account held by the Federation.
Also is it possible that Federation use's alien money instead of money of their own when off world? Kind of like how people in other countries might use American money from time to time.
Jason
Also is it possible that Federation use's alien money instead of money of their own when off world? Kind of like how people in other countries might use American money from time to time.
Jason
That would depend on who owns and operates the repli-mat.
If it is a Bajoran establishment, and given that they do indeed have money and a recognizible monitary system, this shows that people most likely pay for replicated items (at least there) but without the payment being something obvious like Sisko feeding the replicator a handful of coins.
Beverly paid for her purchase with a verbal authorization. Simply ordering and recieving the replicated item might result in a charge to your monetary account. Beverly mention her account.
There was also a Klingon cafe/restaurant on the promenade, we know that the Klingon people have a monitary system similar to our modern system (I forget what their money's called).
Okay that might cover Humanity, now how about the entirety of the Federation? Humanity would be a small fraction of the population, do Betazeds work to better Humanity?
You apparently are interpreting Picard statement that money doesn't exist in the 24th century to then mean most everything is free in the Federation.
That is a interpretation.
Given that there is conflicting evidence on this matter, I'll admit that I'm going with the greater body of evidence (and not the smaller) that the Federation does indeed has money, uses money, and things are not free, this would include Humanity.
No, not just on the frontier or outside the Federation, inside the Federation.
When Picard said to Lily that money doesn't exist in the 24th century, I honestly don't know what he was talking about. Picard himself used money prior to that statement.
I've always seen people simply go up to a replimat, order, then walk away. The usual transaction for something automated that requires money is for the machine to request some person code or information. We would probably hear the computer request a code or something. But the computer never speaks, the person just orders, gets what they want and leaves.
And then you have to wonder, if Starfleet officers are used to getting Starfleet stipends or whatever to trade with societies that do use money, why do some of them act so unfamiliar or confused whenever they are in situations when they have to use money?
Sometimes I think the idea of 24th century people "pretending" to do things the way children do may not be so silly. Jake said he sold a book to the Federation News service. Quark asked him how much did he got paid, and Jake said it was just a figure of speech.
He must have spent a lot of time and went through a lot to write the book. But he didn't seem to expect any compensation--and the FNS gave him no compensation for it whatsoever. No credits to trade on other worlds, on the station, anything.
Which would mean the replimat had to have been for free, otherwise, how is Jake supporting himself?
And then you have to wonder, if Starfleet officers are used to getting Starfleet stipends or whatever to trade with societies that do use money, why do some of them act so unfamiliar or confused whenever they are in situations when they have to use money?
Sometimes I think the idea of 24th century people "pretending" to do things the way children do may not be so silly. Jake said he sold a book to the Federation News service. Quark asked him how much did he got paid, and Jake said it was just a figure of speech.
He must have spent a lot of time and went through a lot to write the book. But he didn't seem to expect any compensation--and the FNS gave him no compensation for it whatsoever. No credits to trade on other worlds, on the station, anything.
Which would mean the replimat had to have been for free, otherwise, how is Jake supporting himself?
Star Trek is told from the Starfleet point of view. Rarely are we given the civilian view. Perhaps the Federation has an account that all Starfleet personnel draws from as needed. This explains Crusher buying a bolt of fabric, and any other purchases. Since Jake is not Starfleet, he can't access that account to buy a baseball card.
Replicators are magical tech that has resulted in post scarcity society. There aren't any limited resources. People aren't toiling long hard hours in mines or farm fields.
Do normal civilians have access to replicators or replicated goods? All we see are Starfleet ships and installations or a former Cardassian military station.
A money free society would only work if everyone or at least the majority worked for the betterment of civilization. This is contrary to the mindset of survival of the fittest. Such a change would be a change in heart condition. We still squabble over issues of race. People oppress their neighbors both on national levels as well as the neighborhood gang level. Money both helps these horrors continue to exist and helps distribute scarce resources in the face of such evil.
To accept a monetary free society means to accept the idea humans (and aliens) can, on their own, rise above selfish inclinations and a me first mentality. It means discarding ideas about racism, nationalism and other isms that divide people into camps, groups and feelings of superiority.
Star Trek really hasn't done that. It has simply moved the isms off planet. Instead of Americans vs. Russians or Christians vs. Muslims it's Federation vs. Dominion, Klingons vs. Romulans and so forth.
Replicators are magical tech that has resulted in post scarcity society. There aren't any limited resources. People aren't toiling long hard hours in mines or farm fields.
Do normal civilians have access to replicators or replicated goods? All we see are Starfleet ships and installations or a former Cardassian military station.
A money free society would only work if everyone or at least the majority worked for the betterment of civilization. This is contrary to the mindset of survival of the fittest. Such a change would be a change in heart condition. We still squabble over issues of race. People oppress their neighbors both on national levels as well as the neighborhood gang level. Money both helps these horrors continue to exist and helps distribute scarce resources in the face of such evil.
To accept a monetary free society means to accept the idea humans (and aliens) can, on their own, rise above selfish inclinations and a me first mentality. It means discarding ideas about racism, nationalism and other isms that divide people into camps, groups and feelings of superiority.
Star Trek really hasn't done that. It has simply moved the isms off planet. Instead of Americans vs. Russians or Christians vs. Muslims it's Federation vs. Dominion, Klingons vs. Romulans and so forth.
Previously established voice print and bio-metrics. Someone completely new to the station might need to identify themselves.
Though his parent? He does eventually get a job as a reporter.
And yet this has never been shown to happen on-screen.
Which, given human nature, is not likely to happen anytime soon.
Possible, but I think this is from the same Federation News service, and they didn't pay him anything for the book he sold to them.
I remember thinking it was so strange when Picard says "Ale's for everyone!", and the everyone shouts their gratitude. Except you're thinking, 'if the drinks are free, why is everyone so surprised/grateful'?
Another strange thing is, that other cultures like Bajor and even Cardassia knew what replicators are and even have them, but yet have always claimed to have problems with scarcity. Yet for some reason, only earth (or the Federation?) knows how to eliminate need and poverty with theirs.
It's hard for me to believe they could have done this without replicators--or they would have to utilize slaughter houses, rely on farming, use manual labor to produce textile goods-- I've always assumed their post scarcity success-- as they've described it--had to be because of replicators.
And you have to think that earth should be a major immigration destination if there is no hunger or need for money there, yet so many other cultures struggle with poverty and need money .
If they ever do a post Nemesis series, I wonder if fans are going to start asking questions about the money thing.
