Here is how I think the federation works without needing money.

[Jayson1]

My theory is that when people work they get paid with in access as oposed to any kind of money. For example maybe if you do a job you get first dibs on the latest holodeck program or backstage passes to a concert of your favorite band and so forth. It's also possible that you might get alien money if you want to buy stuff from alien vendor's or stuff from a non-federation planet.

Jason

 

[Vger23]

I was going to respond to this, but I was too busy in the "Is Starfleet a Millitary" threads.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Money is a tokenised form of barter. You receive physical or virtual tokens in return for labour, services, goods you sell, or possessions you no longer need. Money simplifies microeconomic transactions; otherwise, we'd have to wheel around barrow-loads of turnips or self-sealing stem bolts (for example) and negotiate an exchange rate every time we wanted to buy or sell something. Now as to what the tokens should be -- we're already transitioning away from physical to virtual currency -- that's a trend that will continue (but I have no idea whether it's a good idea to invest in Bitcoin). As to what the Federation currency is based on, perhaps there's an energy standard rather than a gold or latinum standard or perhaps it's a free-floating fiat currency that has whatever value the Federation decides it to be. Whether Federation currency is acceptable to alien governments and convertible to their currencies depends on their theories of economics and economic policies. If commerce is possible and profitable, a deal will be worked out. What won't happen are effectively unlimited tokens being made available to every Federation citizen no matter what they contribute to society. That's a post-scarcity economy in an SF universe more akin to Iain M Banks's Culture. It's a nice fantasy but I suspect it would require a lot of policing by AIs or other monitoring agents to prevent people buying their own nuclear or anti-matter weapon arsenals just to threaten people to whom they've taken a dislike.

 

[Tenacity]

If I pay you in alien coins, or replicator credits, or transporter credits, or a upgrade in living accommodations, how isn't that paying you "money?"

You are recieving value in direct exchange for intellectual or physical efforts.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

If I pay you in alien coins, or replicator credits, or transporter credits, or a upgrade in living accommodations, how isn't that paying you "money?"

You are recieving value in direct exchange for intellectual or physical efforts.

Apart from alien coins, you can only spend those in a restricted numbers of ways -- they're not freely convertible as I doubt unauthorised aliens would be allowed access to Federation replicators, transporters, and accommodation. It's similar to those companies in the 19th century that paid their employees in scrip that could only be spent in the company's outlets. It's illegal in the UK. I don't know about in the US or the Federation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's similar to those companies in the 19th century that paid their employees in scrip that could only be spent in the company's outlets. It's illegal in the UK. I don't know about in the US

It's been illegal in the US for decades as well.

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[Asbo Zaprudder]

So the Federation practises debt bondage?

 

[Nyotarules]

And no one owns land its all leased from the planetary authorities....yeah right

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Apart from alien coins, you can only spend those in a restricted numbers of ways -- they're not freely convertible as I doubt unauthorised aliens would be allowed access to Federation replicators, transporters, and accommodation.

They never actually showed this onscreen, but I do remember reading once that there is some kind of vaguely ATM-like machine in Quark's bar that helps patrons exchange different kinds of money - Federation credits, Cardassian leks, Bajoran litas, Klingon darseks, Ferengi latinum, etc.

 

[Kor]

They never actually showed this onscreen, but I do remember reading once that there is some kind of vaguely ATM-like machine in Quark's bar that helps patrons exchange different kinds of money - Federation credits, Cardassian leks, Bajoran litas, Klingon darseks, Ferengi latinum, etc.

And there's probably a sizeable fee per transaction, that goes straight to Quark!

Kor

 

[JoeCabby]

The only way the federation works is basically communism, and not the same dictatorship communism we all know and love, but the Utopian Communist society that sold these countries on communism in the first place.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.
Give what you can, take only what you need.

It kind of works in Star Trek land because of Replicators, I assume everyone's basic needs can be met by public replicators, food, clothing, shelter, etc.

Employees don't get paid, they don't need money. I assume most projects are like open source software. If you want to build a building, or spacecraft, you post an idea on a federation website, something similar to a mashup or codeplex, wikipedia and gofundme sites. People sign up or contribute what they can to the project.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And there's probably a sizeable fee per transaction, that goes straight to Quark!

No doubt. But it's still in Quark's best interest to provide an easy way for patrons to exchange their native money for one that he will accept. Otherwise they can't be customers...

 

[Nyotarules]

So what about land inherited from your ancestors, before the Federation? Does the state steal it from you, just like communism? Give us your vineyard Monsieur Picard or be exterminated?

 

[Kor]

So what about land inherited from your ancestors, before the Federation? Does the state steal it from you, just like communism? Give us your vineyard Monsieur Picard or be exterminated?

Humanity will have evolved beyond our greedy notions of acquiring and owning stuff.

Even in some traditional cultures, the concept of owning the land was considered as strange as the idea of somehow owning the sky.

Kor

 

[Nightdiamond]

With the 'everything is free' concept, I'm starting to become a little convinced that the Federation would have a serious problem with its citizens being motivated to work.

I can see it with some jobs and careers like writing, acting and so on, but service industry type jobs, or being a maid or butler, or someone who has to fix the replicators when they are broke, I don't get it.

Even the replicators themselves would have to be serviced and maintained. The energy that provides the replicators have to be produced and maintained by someone. That sounds like hard, messy, time consuming work.


The idea of "all" people just being happy to work to enrich themselves leaves out too many questions--it seems a little weird.

 

[Nyotarules]

^ I agree, which is way I don't buy it (pun intended). Besides the Star Trek franchise contradicts itself on this...surprise, surprise

 

[Jayson1]

With the 'everything is free' concept, I'm starting to become a little convinced that the Federation would have a serious problem with its citizens being motivated to work.

I can see it with some jobs and careers like writing, acting and so on, but service industry type jobs, or being a maid or butler, or someone who has to fix the replicators when they are broke, I don't get it.

Even the replicators themselves would have to be serviced and maintained. The energy that provides the replicators have to be produced and maintained by someone. That sounds like hard, messy, time consuming work.


The idea of "all" people just being happy to work to enrich themselves leaves out too many questions--it seems a little weird.

I wonder if Starfleet actually does a lot of the jobs, people in this society wouldn't want done or maybe the simply hire aliens to do those kind of jobs. I remember in the "Voyager" ep were Barclay went to the beach to see Troi you had that alien waiter, working there. Also I wonder how much of this "no money" thing is just a earth thing as oposed to a "Federation" thing. I asume there are Federation world's that still have currency.

Jason

 

[Nightdiamond]

^ I agree, which is way I don't buy it (pun intended). Besides the Star Trek franchise contradicts itself on this...surprise, surprise

I wonder if Starfleet actually does a lot of the jobs, people in this society wouldn't want done or maybe the simply hire aliens to do those kind of jobs. I remember in the "Voyager" ep were Barclay went to the beach to see Troi you had that alien waiter, working there. Also I wonder how much of this "no money" thing is just a earth thing as oposed to a "Federation" thing. I asume there are Federation world's that still have currency.Jason

True, one episode or movie will explicitly say humans don't use money at all, but then another one will have the characters talking about purchasing something.

Epecially when you see things like restaurants. Theoretically no one really needs to go to a restaurant since the replicator can provide the same things.

There is no money and things are generally free. This means someone caught the seafood or cleaned the meat personally, cooked it, prepared it. (messy, time consuming) And then hired waiters to serve customers, possibly some rude, demanding ones (and remember the food's free, but they're still demanding lol)

Since no one pays for anything, the first question to pop up in your mind is what makes these people go through all of this trouble.


My thing is not that the idea is totally dumb, but that Trek never had a simple scene or situation where they explained or discussed it in simple terms. It was always a generalization--'we've given up the need for money'. Yet we see people work at jobs that would make us wonder why they would bother with such a thing.

It just seems like a weird situation.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The Federation appears to operate as a one-party system. We never see political factions in the way we understand them now, unless one counts the Maquis, who got stamped on.

Other than the Maquis, which perhaps was an aberration, what does the Federation usually do with people who oppose the status quo? Is dissent in the Federation diagnosed as a mental illness and treated against the will of the individual or, as happened to Moriarty, are they locked in a holodeck simulation where they can live out their "perverted" viewpoint without disrupting others? In TOS, the death penalty existed for some odd crimes such as going to Talos IV, but it appears to have been abolished by the time of TNG (as stated by Picard in "Justice").

Tom Paris got sent to an open prison. While it wan't a gulag, it seemed to deviate from the propaganda of the Federation being a utopia.

Is the Ferengi political and economic system the most similar to our own?

 

[pgbka]

With the 'everything is free' concept, I'm starting to become a little convinced that the Federation would have a serious problem with its citizens being motivated to work.

I can see it with some jobs and careers like writing, acting and so on, but service industry type jobs, or being a maid or butler, or someone who has to fix the replicators when they are broke, I don't get it.

Even the replicators themselves would have to be serviced and maintained. The energy that provides the replicators have to be produced and maintained by someone. That sounds like hard, messy, time consuming work.


The idea of "all" people just being happy to work to enrich themselves leaves out too many questions--it seems a little weird.

This does not seem weird to me at all. If all my material needs were met, I would happily still work for free, because of the enjoyment and intellectual stimulation. If that is the case for me now, then surely it is reasonable to consider it even more so in hundreds of years, when material needs can be met much more easily. It only seems strange because of the current obsession with material goods. One can see that people have different aptitudes and abilities, different fields are going to interest different individuals, and there is going to be someone who wants to do each necessary job. The Federation is clearly dangerous, but many join because of the prestige of it. There are people who enjoy being bartenders (Guinan) and waiters (the Klingon in DS9). Look at the pride that Chief O'Brien and Odo have from their jobs.

Regarding the posts above commenting about using money in the Federation, I believe that is simply wrong. I recall there being references to the lack of money in both TOS and TNG. This of course includes what is being called "tokens" above, because in the context used above that is just another word for money. My understanding is that money is only held by Federation members to engage in commerce with non-Federation individuals/companies/establishments.