"Hell Bent" Grade and discussion thread

[DS9Continuing]

If Clara didn't die in the trap street, then what motivated the Doctor from that point?

She did die in the trap street, or at least she will/has/willhavedone. These are just some extra adventures she has in the last split second of her life.

I wonder if this gives her the opportunity to go back to her family and her students and at least give them a proper goodbye before she jets off into the universe, so they don't all think she just died in a back alley?

There was no big huge problem to solve, just relive Clara's death and the emotions around, the Doctor himself, and then she still does get to roam the universe with no repercussions!

Is that bad? It means that the Doctor's plan to save her worked, even if he doesn't remember who she is anymore.

Interesting to see how the rumors where wrong. No Tennant or McGann. That wasn't a splinter of Clara either.

Well I hadn't heard that one because I was avoiding spoilers as best I could, but I'm sure the misdirection was deliberate. Just like they made sure everybody knew the Cybermen were back so that Missy was a surprise, and then knew that Missy was back so that Davros would be a surprise. Moffat is figuring out how to use the inevitable leaks and speculation to his advantage.

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[sttngfan1701d]

New shows for 2055
2 Girls 1 TARDIS

That didn't take long. I was just waiting for someone to say this.

Also, Tumblr Who fanfic is suddenly going to get a heckuva lot weirder. Clara's Jane Austen jokes imply bisexuality, so...

Oh, Moffat...why did you have to put them both on that TARDIS?

 

[JoeZhang]

5) The series cannot seem to decide if the Doctor grew up poor in a barn or was high-born...

Not a problem (there's a line about how the barn is 'for the boys', as if it's a refuge for lots of scared new pupils): to get into a British public school, you generally have to be put on an admissions list by an ex-pupil father before you're born, and your parents then have to pay more than the average salary each year to send you there.
But on arrival, the older boys are allowed to treat you as their slave (or they were, I think it's been cracked down on a bit over the last 30 years)... and then in turn you get to treat the new younger boys the same in later years, and then run the country through the innate confidence that comes out of surviving this sort of bullying. Builds character, dontcha know?
So the Doctor being high-born, but then treated as !*!% at the Academy is just very posh English.

An weird mixture of stereotypes, half-truths and the like delivered with a condensing tone (Just note for future - I'm English and an ex-teacher).

-next season's arc will most likely bring Gallifrey fully back once and for all, or at least some major revelation.

I think people have missed this - it's fully back once and for all - there is nothing in the episode to indicate the Doctor doesn't know where it is and he can get them as simple as setting the co-ordinates in his TARDIS. What you saw in the episode was the grand return of Gallifrey.

However since Gallifrey itself is pretty dull so is its return.

 

[intrinsical]

-next season's arc will most likely bring Gallifrey fully back once and for all, or at least some major revelation.

I think people have missed this - it's fully back once and for all - there is nothing in the episode to indicate the Doctor doesn't know where it is and he can get them as simple as setting the co-ordinates in his TARDIS. What you saw in the episode was the grand return of Gallifrey.

However since Gallifrey itself is pretty dull so is its return.

I kinda like it that its the Timelords themselves who got Gallifrey out of the dimensional cuppa soup thingy. Its good that they didn't require The Doctor saving them.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Mixed emotions. Sad from the Doctor/Clara scenes but also a little disappointed that the episode did not deal more with Gallifrey and the Time Lords. The whole thing was a huge misdirection, even the title and synopsis. There was nothing really "hell bent" about the Doctor. I was hoping for a happy episode about Gallifrey being restored and instead we got a huge downer about the Doctor unable to cope with loss and losing his memories.

The Hybrid thing too seemed like a huge misdirection. We were given these clues that the Hybrid was dangerous. It might even be a cross between a time lord and a dalek. The time lords themselves were afraid that the hybrid would destroy them because of the prophecy. We have the Doctor refusing to tell the time lords his secret, leading us to believe that it was something really terrible. Then, there is scene with the Doctor and ME discussing it and we find out that "never mind, the hybrid is just a metaphor for you and Clara".

But in terms of Gallifrey, the show painted itself in a corner. Time of the Doctor made it very clear that Gallifrey could not return in a normal way since the Time War would instantly resume. This episode alludes to that fact when Clara says "the universe hates you". So basically, the only way to bring Gallifrey back was to do it in some secretive way, like hiding it billion of years in the future.

I am not sure how I feel about Clara travelling in a Tardis with ME. Yes, it follows the thread of Clara becoming like the Doctor to its logical conclusion. But Clara makes it clear that she was ok with her death. But instead of giving us closure, the writers turn around and give her the perfect loophole: since she is frozen in a moment before her death, she will still die, but also can have all these adventures which she craves. I still feel it might have been too fanwanky to give her a Tardis like that!

But overall, I will say that the episode is a beautiful allegory about loss and the difficulty in coping with loss. In that sense, the episode really pulled on my heart strings. We've all had a loss that was hard to accept. Also, I had a girl I was in love with that left a huge impression on me that it was hard for me when she dated someone else. So, I could totally relate to the Doctor not wanting to let Clara go. Clara definitely seems like that kind of girl that you would never want to forget. And, the Doctor losing his memory of who Clara is, was so heartbreaking.

 

[JoeZhang]

-next season's arc will most likely bring Gallifrey fully back once and for all, or at least some major revelation.

I think people have missed this - it's fully back once and for all - there is nothing in the episode to indicate the Doctor doesn't know where it is and he can get them as simple as setting the co-ordinates in his TARDIS. What you saw in the episode was the grand return of Gallifrey.

However since Gallifrey itself is pretty dull so is its return.

I kinda like it that its the Timelords themselves who got Gallifrey out of the dimensional cuppa soup thingy. Its good that they didn't require The Doctor saving them.

I missed this but they deal with this and dismiss it in a couple of lines of dialogue:

Clara: I thought you said Gallifrey was frozen in another dimension.

Doctor: Well they must have unfrozen it and come back.

Clara: How?

Doctor: I didn't ask, it would make them feel clever.

 

[Romulan_spy]

However since Gallifrey itself is pretty dull so is its return.

I feel like the show really wasted an opportunity for some great world-building. Yes, by making Gallifrey so dull, there is no point in giving us any more stories about Gallifrey. But Galllifrey could have been interesting and could have been developed further. For me, the concept of an advanced civilization like the Time Lords, has always been fascinating. So, I would have loved it if the writers had made Gallifrey more interesting and given us some great world-building.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Here's a question.

What did Clara say to the Doctor that was so important that they had to literally blank it out with scenes of the city above for almost 10 seconds?

It almost felt like one of those scenes where a man kisses a woman and they show a train for 6 seconds ..............

 

[JoeZhang]

However since Gallifrey itself is pretty dull so is its return.

I feel like the show really wasted an opportunity for some great world-building. Yes, by making Gallifrey so dull, there is no point in giving us any more stories about Gallifrey. But Galllifrey could have been interesting and could have been developed further. For me, the concept of an advanced civilization like the Time Lords, has always been fascinating. So, I would have loved it if the writers had made Gallifrey more interesting and given us some great world-building.

Its partly impossible because of budget - which is why Gallifrey appears to be like just any other alien planets - with gunships, soldiers and pistols.

The problem is then that the series spends so long telling us how fantastic and amazing gallifrey is that the gap between the two gets bigger and bigger all the time.

 

[ihno]

Yes, it's very sad how the Gallifrey story line was wasted here.

Once again it's a typical Moffat thing. With every story arc he promises a lot but delivers only very little. Since the 50th anniversary special the "where/when is Gallifrey?" question stands out so I expected more than "an arbitrary visit to some planet" with the doctor leaving so soon.

As for the episode: I liked it though I think the "special women" thing is something they should not do any more in the future. One can't die, one is stuck in a second before her death.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

^ Yes, it came true in a lame sort of way. He just travelled further into the future!

Nah, it was perfect. It's basically a better version of putting graffiti on the oldest wall in the universe that makes the time lords look like an army of fools for reading too much in what is actually a pretty benign prophecy. They had gone to mad extremes for nothing. They tortured the Doctor for billions of years when not only didn't he know the answer, but the answer proved to be quite embarrassing for them. In the end, despite the Doctor acting on the verge of madness, it's still the rest of the time lords that ended looking like mad men. Rubbing it in their face by having three harmless* individuals sitting there at the end of the universe is a brilliant smack-down, and rather poetic.

The hybrid wasn't even particularly prominent on screen before the Doctor got tortured. It was the Internet blowing it up, not unlike the time lords, so if you were expecting more, you may apply for the High Council, because the resolution was shallow. By that I don't mean it was obvious what it would turn out, but rather that all the Big Thing possibilities were going to be underwhelming.

The Doctor basically forcing the General to be more precise and careful with his description of the prophecy, and to question the crazy presumptions (like a ridiculous Dalek/Time Lord hybrid idea), was a nice lead-up to that.

* Certain conditions apply.

P.S. Yes, the Doctor was tortured for billions of years. He may not remember them – although we don't quite know how exactly the confession dial operates, and if we are to take everything that happens in it literally – but there were billions upon billions of Doctors tortured, amounting to billions of years of Doctor-torture. It still adds up.

 

[MikeS]

What wasn't resolved about the hybrid? I thought they explained it almost perfectly. The Doctor even stood in the ruins of Gallifrey like the prophecy predicted. The scenes between the Doctor and Me at the end of the universe took place in the cloister room. As the Doctor mentioned, the problem with prophecy is that they never tell you anything useful. Now of course there is some wiggle room there with the destroying a billion billion hearts just to heal his own...but hey, not all prophecies come true. The arc didn't go as I expected it to I admit. I was expecting some earth shattering revelation, not a personal story of how 2 people deal with loss and grief. It's actually quite refreshing to be honest.

Ah, but he did "destroy a billion billion hearts to heal his own" - he destroyed his two hearts over and over again for a billion years in the time loop inside the Confession Dial - the prophecy was correct but not useful.

I did not like this episode. The misdirection was clever, I enjoyed the reveal that Missy had put them together because "she adores chaos" (I came to the conclusion that the "hybrid" was the team of Doctor and Clara), and of course the classic Tardis interior was great. But overall I felt let-down. I think that's what Moffat wanted to do though, with his talk of problematic prophecies reflecting boards like this.

I love Capaldi but I am through with Moffat. I won't be watching the next series.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

So he takes his (next) stolen Tardis to the end of the Universe, 4 knocks on the door, and he tells Clara that "It's me!" Was I alone in expecting it to be Doctor 10, Captain Jack and Martha?

 

[Pauln6]

I have liked this season far better than the last and the last two episodes have been intriguing. They felt far more like adult sci fi that kids could enjoy. I much prefer them pitching closer to that ideal.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

That was pretty damned good, really. Good enough that I'll forgive the Doctor exiting the passenger side of the truck. I slag Moffat sometimes but that was Moffat Who at its Moffaty best. The production team did a great job with the visuals as well.

 

[MikeS]

So he takes his (next) stolen Tardis to the end of the Universe, 4 knocks on the door, and he tells Clara that "It's me!" Was I alone in expecting it to be Doctor 10, Captain Jack and Martha?

You were not alone. I thought that too.

 

[TommyR01D]

8. Those prophecies must have been spectacularly vague if they didn't specify the species of the hybrid, how many people were involved, or what the hybrid would do. To the extent that this half-hearted hybrid arc ever existed at all, it didn't conclude with a bang so much as a series of shrugs.
9. Between Missy, the General and the Grunt actor from Sleep No More, the representation of transgendereds and transsexuals on Doctor Who has some pretty unfortunate implications.
10. The removal of Clara's contribution to the Doctor's memories reminded me somewhat of the eight series premier of My Parents Are Aliens.
11. The issue of the Doctor's age post-Heaven Sent is quite thorny because
a) If we treat all those piled up skulls as one person then that makes the Doctor billions of years old. Even the 900 years that Smith spent on Trenzalore is microscopic in comparison to this.
b) If we treat them as different (but identical) people, then it means that this time the Doctor really has permanently died (a lot) and we're not quite watching the same character now as we were in Face the Raven.
Option a) would at least justify the memory wipe, since between Hell Bent and The Time of the Doctor, the titular character has now spent something like 99.9999754% of his existence obsessing over Clara. For comparison, his fixation with Rose Tyler lasted about six years at best. Without the magical removal of Clara from the Doctor's psyche, there would be no conceivable way of him moving on from her.

 

[TommyR01D]

So he takes his (next) stolen Tardis to the end of the Universe, 4 knocks on the door, and he tells Clara that "It's me!" Was I alone in expecting it to be Doctor 10, Captain Jack and Martha?

You were not alone. I thought that too.

Ha!

 

[Saul]

Messy episode that raised far more questions than it bothered answering. We have to wait another year or even more for them to be possibly answered.

What was good was the acting and there were some great scenes. I also love the old tardis interior and was disappointed they didn't decide to stick with it.

Overall for a long episode it wasn't satisfying. But I guess when one of the scenes in this extended episode was a man eating soup you can't hope for much more.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

So he takes his (next) stolen Tardis to the end of the Universe, 4 knocks on the door, and he tells Clara that "It's me!" Was I alone in expecting it to be Doctor 10, Captain Jack and Martha?

I didn't expect quite that, but I wondered if Jacobi's Master was nearby when it was revealed where Gallifrey was, and then I secretly hoped a future Doctor's incarnation would show up when the Doctor said “It's me!”

There's some odd parallel between Utopia and yesterday's episode, especially given how the High Council was banished with nowhere to go. It's almost as if there's an extra link between the events of Utopia, Hell Bent, Last of the Time Lords/The Sound of Drums, and The End of Time that we haven't been told yet. I am somewhat disappointed knowing it's probably unintended.