Having Babies In Space.

[Timo]

No, the episode pretty firmly establishes that all resequencings of DNA -- in other words, all acts of genetic engineering -- have been banned.

But you saw the quotes - they don't cover all the bases, and other evidence exists to indicate that the ban is not absolute.

One shouldn't breed supermen, but one can certainly manipulate a person's genome back and forth as long as the effect is purely therapeutic. Dr. Crusher redid the genetic code of dozens of people, usually for the purpose of reversing an adverse change on it.

Certainly the plot of "Dr. Bashir, I Presume" did not affect the Star Trek that came after the episode: genetic manipulation for the benefit of the patient's health continued unabated. In VOY "Lineage", the EMH readily recommended genetic modification for Miral Paris' back problems, and had no legal objection to the further genetic changes B'Elanna wanted to perform on her, either.

This would all be consistent if the ban were only there to block future Khans. And "Dr. Bashir, I Presume" is consistent with that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Star Wolf]

I can survive in the vacuum of space for a minute or two, and maintain consciousness for at least thirty seconds.

Am I a Coordinator?

what do u mean?

There is a TNG episode were Dr Crusher and Geordi prepare themselves and survive a minute exposed to vacuum as the evacuate a storage room containing an unstable substance getting ready to explode. Other SF shows have played the human surviving a minute or so in space unprotected. Having never studied it I take on faith that it is scientifically possible.

 

[Timo]

And why wouldn't it be? Human skin can take pressure variations on the stride, as any scuba diver would testify. And blood doesn't boil unless it's on an open vat; as long as it is in a pressure vessel such as a blood vein, it's safe and sound. And freezing doesn't happen quickly in any conditions (our watery bodies retain heat very, very well), let alone in the Dewar bottle conditions of spatial vacuum.

Intuitively, space should not be much more harmful to you than an empty and dark room. Not on the short term.

And certainly a starship protects you from basically all aspects of space. For all we know, kids born on starships are disadvantaged because they never face adversity: they never get dirty, they never breathe pollen, their bruises never get infected, and their health care is too perfect for their own good.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

Molly O'Brien's immune system seemed to work so fine that she was able to live and prosper in a feral existence from the age of eight or so to eighteen...

Edit: granted, this was on an alien world, where no virus at least could possibly harm her, but bacterial infections could presumably still pose a threat.

 

[Keith1701]

I can survive in the vacuum of space for a minute or two, and maintain consciousness for at least thirty seconds.

Am I a Coordinator?

works for me, too!!!!

 

[The Badger]

Having never studied it I take on faith that it is scientifically possible.

No need to take it on faith. A sudden exposure to vacuum would probably knock you unconscious in about ten seconds, and kill you in about ninety.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html


If you deep breath heavily beforehand to maximize the amount of oxygen in your blood you might stay conscious for about 15 seconds.

Now you're probably thinking that you can hold your breath longer than that.

Bad move.

The air in your lungs would expand, rupturing lung tissue and forcing potentially lethal air bubbles into the blood stream, leading to heart and brain embolisms.

Best advice. If suddenly exposed to a vacuum exhale rapidly. Screaming should do the trick, and it's a likely reaction to being in that situation. Go with it!

 

[kythe]

And certainly a starship protects you from basically all aspects of space. For all we know, kids born on starships are disadvantaged because they never face adversity: they never get dirty, they never breathe pollen, their bruises never get infected, and their health care is too perfect for their own good.

Timo Saloniemi

I agree that it seems kids raised on starships may be hindered in developing the ability to adapt to varying environments. They never even experience real weather or temparature changes. How many plants and animals have they really encountered?

I've wondered about some other things as well. What about sunlight? How do people living on starships compensate for the lack of natural light? What about fresh air? They seem to breathe only recirculated air since the ship itself never actually lands on planets where they would have the opportunity to open the windows and let it air out, so to speak.

 

[SilentP]

I've wondered about some other things as well. What about sunlight? How do people living on starships compensate for the lack of natural light? What about fresh air? They seem to breathe only recirculated air since the ship itself never actually lands on planets where they would have the opportunity to open the windows and let it air out, so to speak.

I'm not sure about the natural light, though I could imagine that future tech may come up with something for lighting that doesnt just project in the visibile light spectrum?

As for fresh air, I'd say that aboretums (sp?) serve a purpose is helping to keep the air somewhat fresh, though I imagine that on smaller or specialised ships that the air can get stale after a while. Either that or there's a definite medical need for shore leave planetside, or perhaps that eventually tech may be able to air fresher for much longer.

If it's a REAL big problem about freshness, I wonder if a few transporters working together could do a 'swap' between the ship's air, and a nice nearby M-class planet's atmosphere

 

[Timo]

If you deep breath heavily beforehand to maximize the amount of oxygen in your blood you might stay conscious for about 15 seconds.

Why is this?

I mean, when a diver holds his breath for two minutes, it's not really because of the air in his lungs. A diver may in fact exhale before diving, as empty lungs give him more mobility than filled ones; it's the oxygen already in his blood that counts. So why would it last mere 15 seconds in space when it lasts for 150 here on Earth?

Hyperventilate to get your blood saturated with oxygen; exhale so that the air remaining in your lungs doesn't cause too much problems when external pressure disappears; keep your mouth shut. You should be good for two minutes then. If not, why not?

...eventually tech may be able to air fresher for much longer.

I'd argue a starship's air purifiers should be at least as good as a Class M environment in this purifying business, if not better. Treknology doesn't hinge on primitive stuff like filters and absorbers: these folks can even synthesize new oxygen if they wish.

So it's merely a question of how efficiently they can circulate the air from the user to the purifier and back. And the answer might be "very well indeed", even if it requires turning up the fans every few months and inconveniencing the people with a breeze and a noise.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I wonder if the OP is asking about genetic engineering to allow cross-species couples to have their own children? That, as far as I can tell, seems perfectly legal since it would be far from frivolous...those children would need it to live.

 

[Timo]

It goes a bit beyond that, as B'Elanna Torres seemed to have the legal right to engineer her child to a specific balance of Klingon and human features - a procedure unrelated to the health of the child.

I wonder if anybody actually does that sort of stuff. Some of our VOY heroes were opposed to Torres doing it, but for all we know, Miles and Keiko ordered a very specific genetic mix from their doctor for Molly. Or K'Ehleyr customized Alexander.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

I wonder if the OP is asking about genetic engineering to allow cross-species couples to have their own children? That, as far as I can tell, seems perfectly legal since it would be far from frivolous...those children would need it to live.

While this is no doubt true, what concerns me is that it's still a false argument for the process itself--Baby Khan needs genetic engineering to live, too, because otherwise he is not Khan. Does the policy imperative of inter-Federation breeding supersede humanity's geocentric parochialism? Otherwise, how can effective supermen such as Spock, far mightier than Khan, may be created from human genetic stock, while classical Augments are forbidden, lock stock and barrel?

 

[Rob Grant]

I wonder if the OP is asking about genetic engineering to allow cross-species couples to have their own children? That, as far as I can tell, seems perfectly legal since it would be far from frivolous...those children would need it to live.

already too many people in the world..

shouldnt be making more..

 

[Star Wolf]

I wonder if the OP is asking about genetic engineering to allow cross-species couples to have their own children? That, as far as I can tell, seems perfectly legal since it would be far from frivolous... those children would need it to live.

already too many people in the world..

shouldnt be making more..

Only this is Star Trek, the Federation remember. The Picard family owns a mass grape farm. The Kirk family looks like it owns half of what we call Iowa. There seems to be no pressing population problems.

And here I thought you were asking why not augments? Well Khan on Earth. And after the Federation became aware of the Borg why not a similiar uneasiness with implants like Geordi's?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I wonder if the OP is asking about genetic engineering to allow cross-species couples to have their own children? That, as far as I can tell, seems perfectly legal since it would be far from frivolous...those children would need it to live.

While this is no doubt true, what concerns me is that it's still a false argument for the process itself--Baby Khan needs genetic engineering to live, too, because otherwise he is not Khan. Does the policy imperative of inter-Federation breeding supersede humanity's geocentric parochialism? Otherwise, how can effective supermen such as Spock, far mightier than Khan, may be created from human genetic stock, while classical Augments are forbidden, lock stock and barrel?

The child produced would not be Khan, certainly, but assuming a human-human pairing, the resulting child would be viable, able to survive to term and beyond without genetic alteration. That's the point I'm making. I think in a pretty sizeable number of cases with hybrid children, though, if conception were even possible at all, the result would be miscarriage, stillbirth, or severe, life-threatening birth defects. In some cases, perhaps even death to the mother as well as the child.

 

[The Badger]

If you deep breath heavily beforehand to maximize the amount of oxygen in your blood you might stay conscious for about 15 seconds.

Why is this?

I mean, when a diver holds his breath for two minutes, it's not really because of the air in his lungs. A diver may in fact exhale before diving, as empty lungs give him more mobility than filled ones; it's the oxygen already in his blood that counts. So why would it last mere 15 seconds in space when it lasts for 150 here on Earth?
Timo Saloniemi

I must admit that I've not yet found any reference to this matter. I would speculate though that it is not possible to completely empty the lungs by muscle power alone. There would still be some air in there.

Air is approximately 21% oxygen. Expelled air is about 14.5% oxygen, this is what allows mouth to mouth resuscitation to work. A diver then would still have a small reserve of oxygen in his lungs, even if he does empty them to the best of his ability.

I will continue to research this.

 

[kes7]

Wait, go back to the "gene resequencing is illegal" thing? I never watched DS9, so I didn't know about that. The Doctor on VOY did plenty of gene resequencing (Icheb and Lyndsay Ballard come to mind) and referred to it constantly as if it was no big deal. In Icheb's case, he resisted, but not because of the gene resequencing -- it was because he thought removing Icheb's cortical node would kill him (Icheb wanted to give his cortical node to Seven when hers malfunctioned and he thought he could compensate for the loss with gene resequencing). In Lyndsay's case, it was just to try and make her look normal again after her dead body had been reanimated and transformed by aliens, (but he ultimately failed in his effort and made only cosmetic changes instead). Since he was programmed by Starfleet, you'd think he'd have awareness of the ban and at least mention it.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Well, maybe only the creation of Augments and Augment-like people is illegal: enhancement of intelligence or physical strength without any real necessity from a medical point of view... maybe the law says that you can't have your genes resequenced just because you think it would be cool to have twice the physical strength of a "normal" human.

 

[The Badger]

^Yeah, that seems to be it. You can use GE to fix things that go wrong, maybe even do a little cosmetic work (didn't Belanna ask the Doctor to make her child look less Klingon?), but using it for 'improvement' is right out.

 

[Timo]

Which raises the question of how much was really wrong with young Julian Bashir. Did his parents take defensible corrective measures to help a factually retarded Julian reach parity with his classmates, and then overdid it? Or was Julian doing perfectly fine originally, and the parents overreacted entirely in giving him a boost? On this, we can't really trust the statements we hear in "Dr. Bashir, I Presume" because they are made by highly biased people.

Timo Saloniemi