Have fans changed

[Nightdiamond]

TOS I think, was very cerebral. Especially considering it didn't have the technology or the budget for special effects all the time. So it focused a lot on sci fi and story. Spectre of the Gun literally had a cardboard prop. Most of the good stuff was in the dialog which was pretty cerebral.


I do think over time certain expectations change. I don't think everyone now want to see perfect characters in an utopia where modern day concerns are avoided and the plot of the day is always solved at the end of the episode (and then on to the next adventure).

I doubt that format would work today like it has in the past.

All of the shows had weaknesses and strengths, some more than others. IMO, in TOS the secondary characters hardly had anything to say or do. In TNG the characters were too perfect. Kelvin Trek, too much mindless action, not enough filler.

DS9 is the only trek that struck the right balance to me.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Both are true, but I still like it.

Most of the stuff I like is stupid in some way, come to think of it.

Same. I actually really like that movie, tbh.

 

[Infern0]

I'm not sure I've seen "a lot" of fans who hold the view that Disco is the best Trek ever. I give most episodes of the show a 9 or 10. Does that mean I think they're perfect, or the best ever? Nope. That's simply not how my rating scale works.

That said, I see a lot of comments, especially on the subreddits, about how Disco fans are intolerant and tend to downvote or attack anyone who disagrees with them. If you check, though, the reality ends up usually being different: people on the subreddits get downvoted for sharing misinformation or being outright rude, not for voicing criticism. There's also a weird tendency where politely disagreeing with someone is immediately called an "attack," deflecting any real engagement. And then there's the "If you like Disco, you're not a real Star Trek fan" nonsense that seems to never go away.

Point being that flippancy and irritability come from all corners, have made roots, and can't be fairly assigned to one group. At some point, everybody just gets really tired of each other, whether it's "Try it, you'll like it," or "Just stop complaining about the Klingon make up already." No, it's really all factions, and trying to lay blame at any one party's feet is impossible. But I do think there's a third party that really does deserve some blame.

If you want to find the people who really muck things up for everyone else, fans and critics alike, I'd say to look to the toxic, lunatic fringe of people who are angry about a woman of color leading the show, or that they have to see gay people, or that CBS is part of a "worldwide SJW conspiracy." Some of those people are in the fandom not because they're fans but because they've found a cause. They're as likely as anything to to drive people away, make people paranoid about each other, and increase the general sense of division that people feel. People like to dismiss this stuff as hyperbole, but it's there, week after week, in the comments sections of Midnight's Edge and its ilk, spreading via their 110,000 followers. These days much of it is conveniently hidden inside dog whistle terms, but some of the threads that get quickly deleted from the various subreddits are frankly appalling examples of racism and bigotry (such as a post about lynching the main character), and they're clearly designed to inflame.

If you go online looking for a sincere debate and come up against that stuff, it should be little wonder that your patience wears thin, whether you like the show or not. I don't think the fandom has changed, but I think there's a peripheral party that is indeed driving people away.

To me, a 10/10 episode of TV is a basically perfect episode, in Star Trek terms it's Far beyond the stars, best of both worlds, that tier. I don't give out scores like that like candy for a "good" episode which is really a 7/10 and not an all time classic

I enjoy discovery, and midnight's Edge and the rest of the deranged trolls annoy me.

As far as the diversity of the show, I like it, it's a good mix and most groups are represented. Star trek has been diverse for a long time with my favourite show in the series being DS9 which was diverse and tackled issues such as the civil rights movement and religious intolerance. My favourite character on the show is Stamets. I don't love Burnham because I just don't find her character that fascinating and would prefer a straight ensemble show where we see more from other characters.

What it comes down to with Discovery, I like the show, I just don't love it the same way I did TOS, TNG, DS9. Maybe at the age of 31 I'm over the hill for this new show or something, I don't know. I just want a show set after nemesis with an ensemble cast, a traditional trek show with good stories, that's all I ask.

 

[Rahul]

At it's core, Star Trek is a show, where an episode starts with a bunch of scientists trying to snap pictures of a wormhole, and it ends with someone getting a stern talking-to. Inbetween that are various levels of shirt-ripping and alien-punching. But in the past these punch-throws were usually the icing on the cake. Very delicious and entertaining! But not the actual meat of the story itself.

In superhero movies, they are usually the resolution - aka the plot ends, when the badguy gets knocked out. Then everything wraps itself up. Star Trek - the television show(s) - didn't work like that. Depending on the show there was some punching, yes. But that usually never solved solved the puzzle. Most of the time, there had to be a Kirk- or Picard-speech to actually adress the issues of the episodes.

That changed with the movies, which since Wrath of Khan transformed into the superhero-model of storytelling. And sadly, this has now completely taken over the television side as well.

 

[SPCTRE]

I don't know you tell me

 

[JoeZhang]

At it's core, Star Trek is a show, where an episode starts with a bunch of scientists trying to snap pictures of a wormhole, and it ends with someone getting a stern talking-to..

one of the best regarded Episodes does not end like this (The City on the Edge of Forever) never does Yesterday's Enterprise.

 

[Rahul]

one of the best regarded Episodes does not end like this (The City on the Edge of Forever) never does Yesterday's Enterprise.

Well, "Citiy on the Edge of Forever" had Kirk getting that stern talking-to.

"Yesterday's Enterprise" is actually a great example - because it does end with a space battle! But maybe you have noticed - the episode could have ended completely without it as well! The "closure" to the plot was getting the ship back in time. Had they been shorter on budget, it might not have happened, and the rest of the episode would have played out exactly the same.

 

[Damian]

I think, like with anything, Star Trek fans are an evolving bunch. We add some, bring some along, and lose some along the way. And we have a whole plethora of opinions and backgrounds. I think what makes Star Trek such a great show is it does attract people from all kinds of backgrounds and philosophies. Conservatives, liberals, libertarians, religious, agnostics, atheists, various races, sexual orientations, male, female. Star Trek fans come from all those backgrounds and much more. And it has elements that appeal to all those various backgrounds.

Are fans different than they were in 1966? Or even 1979, 1987, 1994, 2001, 2009 or even 2017? Absolutely. And some are the same. Personally I'm a completest. I've loved all the shows and movies. I admit to having some continuity issues with Discovery, but I still like the show otherwise. Now there are episodes here and there maybe I don't care for all that much (These are the Voyages for one), but overall I enjoyed the shows otherwise. Nobody's perfect, everyone has a clunker.

But there are some fans that only liked the original series, some maybe got off the bus when TNG came out, some when Star Trek (2009) came out. Others got on when Star Trek (2009) came out and have no use to anything prior to that. There is a legion of DS9-only fans out there, small in number maybe but they're out there.

 

[Lord Garth]

I feel like a Trekkie version of the play, Arthur Miller's The Crucible, could be made. Just have whoever is a fan of the latest incarnation of Star Trek (whatever it is) fill the role of John Proctor, who was accused of witchcraft in 1692 Salem, except instead of being accused of witchcraft, said Trekkie is accused of not being a true fan. A purist can be the judge, Thomas Dansforth.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

It’s about an appreciation for quality, not purism. TOS, TNG and DS9 are good for the most part, the rest not as much. Of course you can be a fan with any set of preferred shows, but a lot of ST is only average, so then I have to wonder what else people are watching if they sing praises to ENT, VGR or DSC, not just watch them for completion as I do. I mean the year is 2019: it’s not like there are only five shows on TV.

 

[at Quark's]

I mean the year is 2019: it’s not like there are only five shows on TV.

Let's enjoy that while we can, according to Data TV only will last for another 20 years or so.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

We can always make an extrasolar field trip, sleeper ships having been retired last year.

 

[at Quark's]

I haven't felt like going on an extended "fun" trip since the devastating losses to my family because of the Eugenic Wars....

 

[Lord Garth]

It’s about an appreciation for quality, not purism. TOS, TNG and DS9 are good for the most part, the rest not as much. Of course you can be a fan with any set of preferred shows, but a lot of ST is only average, so then I have to wonder what else people are watching if they sing praises to ENT, VGR or DSC, not just watch them for completion as I do. I mean the year is 2019: it’s not like there are only five shows on TV.

Though I think VOY is okay, I don't like ENT at all. B&B aren't my style. I honestly think Discovery is the best Star Trek since DS9 ended. Period. In my opinion, it's not even close. I actually like DSC better than TNG or DS9, but I'll settle for saying I think it's the best since DS9.

And, for the record: my favorite current show is Better Call Saul. I put Disco just underneath it for current TV. Another show I like is something you might've heard of. Orange Is the New Black. So I do watch other current shows. I just have different tastes from some people here.

My favorite show of all-time is Mad Men. Try to beat that for Prestige TV. Other than arguably The Sopranos or Breaking Bad, you can't.

By the way, purists also think they care about quality. There are two groups of them: TOS Only Fans and The Roddenberry Elite. Both groups genuinely think everything either after TOS or when Gene died sucks. For the TOS Camp, you might be able to stretch it out to Star Trek VI. For the Roddenberry Camp, you might be able to stretch it to "All Good Things". But those are their respective drop-dead cut-offs. And they'll tell you everything about what they think is wrong with any Star Trek that came out afterwards. Including DS9.

And some of them also like newer things too, that have nothing to do with Star Trek. They want quality too. It's just that what Star Trek was putting out wasn't appealing to them anymore. I know all of this because I got to know a lot of them, when I moderated the TOS Forum and even before & after that when I was a regular in the forum. I don't post there now because I can only talk about the same three seasons so much.

At some point, if you don't think you're ever going to like Star Trek again, you have to stop watching and move on. "But I'm a completest!" The Star Trek you like is already completed.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I think the one constant has always been its fans. Although, if you go back, you realize that every iteration has introduced division among its fans. When TNG came along, it took a while for fans to accept a different Captain other than Kirk and some still don't. With DS9, some outrightly dismissed it as Trek for being set on a station and being darker than its counterparts. With Voyager, franchise fatigue started to set in and it became a love/hate relationship and you have those who stand by it. Enterprise was initially not even branded as Star Trek as they likely knew what they were doing was going to be very divisive. And then we come to Discovery, and I don't think I have to elaborate there, although I think being behind a paywall has created its own sort of division between those fans who can and can't access it.

 

[tomalak301]

After watching the DS9 Documentary (And giving no spoilers) my answer would be a resounding no. Of course if you go to conventions you see an entirely different aspect of Fandom and that's a good aspect. It's why I enjoy going to the Vegas con every year for the last 3 years.

 

[Lord Garth]

And then we come to Discovery, and I don't think I have to elaborate there, although I think being behind a paywall has created its own sort of division between those fans who can and can't access it.

I'll tell you one thing that's been interesting about my experience with Discovery. I'm not used to being on the opposite side of the argument that "Star Trek will never be better than the Trinity of TOS, TNG, and DS9!"

In the sense that, to quote the title of this thread, "Have fans changed", I'll say this: my perspective sure changed.

 

[seigezunt]

"the fans today only want explosions and action" is the sci fi version of "kids today don't understand decent music."

It's a dichotomy that's been used to pummel other fans for *decades*

And it's a false dichotomy. The show was an adventure series from day one, space opera with some message thrown in. If you don't like the new thing, take it up with the show, not its fans.

 

[RPOW0614]

Many different Treks over many years has made for a large and very opinionated fan base.

I have liked all of the shows, all of them. But every time a new show premieres there is always one small percentage of the fan base screaming "It's not real Trek" for some reason or another. Usually small, nit-picky stuff.

When DS9 came on I did not like it. It just didn't "grab" me. But I just went on with my life and several years later I watched the entire run. Still probably my least favorite Trek show, one of them has to be on the bottom of the list, LOL. Everyone hates ENT. It's one of my favorites.
Am I wrong, no. Am I right, no again. Just my preference.

So if some want their Trek to be more like GOT then go watch B5.
Big battles, long arcs and great characters.

I like my Trek to have an underlying intellectual story and if I get some photons shooting around as cool ships battle over a nicely rendered world or in a colorful nebula even better.

 

[BillJ]

I like my Trek to have an underlying intellectual story and if I get some photons shooting around as cool ships battle over a nicely rendered world or in a colorful nebula even better.

I just want Trek to be engaging on some level.