Hated it

[Commishsleer]

^ Yeah, I thought that was clear, too.

Actually I didn't think it was clear from watching the movies.
It was never stated that a new universe was created and the old one still existed.

I accept that it did happen as my TOS DVDs and blu-rays still exist. TNG is still shown on TV. They're still selling Prime Trek merchandise. No need to panic.

They say it outright in 09

KIRK: There won't be a next engagement. By the time we've gathered, it'll be too late. But you say he's from the future, knows what's going to happen, then the logical thing is to be unpredictable.
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

I still don't think those lines were clear enough. I think many people needed the reassurance that this was not like a Guardian of Forever thing.

But what does it matter anyway as you point out the writers, producers, comics, CBS are all agreeing that the Prime Universe still exists. Even if they didn't we all know that the next interpretation of Star Trek could involve either universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Actually I didn't think it was clear from watching the movies.
It was never stated that a new universe was created and the old one still existed.

I accept that it did happen as my TOS DVDs and blu-rays still exist. TNG is still shown on TV. They're still selling Prime Trek merchandise. No need to panic.

They say it outright in 09

KIRK: There won't be a next engagement. By the time we've gathered, it'll be too late. But you say he's from the future, knows what's going to happen, then the logical thing is to be unpredictable.
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

I still don't think those lines were clear enough. I think many people needed the reassurance that this was not like a Guardian of Forever thing.

But what does it matter anyway as you point out the writers, producers, comics, CBS are all agreeing that the Prime Universe still exists. Even if they didn't we all know that the next interpretation of Star Trek could involve either universe.

Don't know how it could be any clearer.

UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

Reassurance??? What an odd thing to expect from a fiction that is ultimately mutable. So yeah, the next version could totally disregard it and the Prime one to.

 

[UFO]

Actually I didn't think it was clear from watching the movies.
It was never stated that a new universe was created and the old one still existed.

I accept that it did happen as my TOS DVDs and blu-rays still exist. TNG is still shown on TV. They're still selling Prime Trek merchandise. No need to panic.

They say it outright in 09

...

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

Which, I'm afraid, is another way of saying they didn't even come close to saying it outright in ST09. Hence the numerous posts trying to make sense of this and other matters. Ironic that they have the characters spend three years at Starfleet Academy, but don't spend ten seconds showing them making an off-hand comment or two as they leave a lecture on parallel universes. A missed opportunity I suggest.

What purpose would that be? Going back in time was an unforeseen accident wasn't it? ... .

It doesn't matter what the circumstances were. The whole point of creating the alternate universe was so that the writers didn't have to adhere to 40+ years of Trek canon. If all they wanted to do was make a complete reboot, then Nero's going back in time and changing things wouldn't have been necessary. But they did it that way so that the Prime universe would still be acknowledged and still exist.

Oh THAT purpose.

If Nero arrived in a pre-existing exact copy of the prime universe, He would alter it in the same ways the branch universe was changed. Thus allowing the freedom you mention.

==I think the trips through the wormhole by Nero and Spock, are better viewed as discrete events as indicated by the gap in time between their arrivals (Doubtless they took a slightly different trajectory around the singularity or some such). Each should have therefore emerged in the Prime timeline's past. Thus creating two separate branches. Once the first branch universe was created, it should have been "sealed off".

Read what I wrote again. They both left the Prime universe at the same time. Nero's incursion changed things so that when Spock arrived, he arrived in the universe Nero created. How is this so difficult to comprehend? It was even explained in the movie.

In the movie it states Nero went into the wormhole first (event number one) and then Spock went in (event number two). I.e. not together or side by side etc. This is backed up by the 25 year arrival difference and other factors (as mentioned). These have no satisfactory explanation, in my opinion, despite Timo's efforts.

Sorry, I don't need convoluted explanations for what I saw. I understood it just fine, along with the explanation the movie gave.

Well, you appear to understand what the film's makers wanted to convey to their audience. But as mentioned, their narrative has one or two problems.

I still don't think those lines were clear enough. I think many people needed the reassurance that this was not like a Guardian of Forever thing.

But what does it matter anyway as you point out the writers, producers, comics, CBS are all agreeing that the Prime Universe still exists. Even if they didn't we all know that the next interpretation of Star Trek could involve either universe.

I agree. Those lines were not clear enough by a long way, especially when I watched the movie the first time some 5 odd years ago without access to CBS, producers, comics, or writers. I couldn't figure out why they hadn't reset the timeline as usual, given the movie was billed as a prequel (as far as I knew), dammit!

UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

A) An "alternate reality" could mean a substitute or replacement reality and
B) "... if the time continuum was disrupted ...". I.e. This suggests "the one and only time continuum".

Don't know how it could be any clearer.

See my suggestion near top.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They say it outright in 09

...

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

Which, I'm afraid, is another way of saying they didn't even come close to saying it outright in ST09. Hence the numerous posts trying to make sense of this and other matters. Ironic that they have the characters spend three years at Starfleet Academy, but don't spend ten seconds showing them making an off-hand comment or two as they leave a lecture on parallel universes. A missed opportunity I suggest.

I'll assume you're joking since both scenes would amount ot the same thing,

The statements, which you've separated by ellipses, answer two different questions. The quote from film shows that an alternate reality was created. The second statement is about the characters knowing the Prime universe is still around. Which is impossible to address with out breaking the fourth wall with exposition or a visit to that universe.

A) An "alternate reality" could mean a substitute or replacement reality and
B) "... if the time continuum was disrupted ...". I.e. This suggests "the one and only time continuum".

A) It could.
B) The disruption in the time continuum created the alternate time line.

Many-worlds interpretation

The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). In lay terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large—perhaps infinite[2]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes. The theory is also referred to as MWI, the relative state formulation, the Everett interpretation, the theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, or just many-worlds.

Don't know how it could be any clearer.

See my suggestion near top.

A suggestion that is the same thing as what happened in the film only in a different setting?

 

[fireproof78]

They say it outright in 09

...

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

Which, I'm afraid, is another way of saying they didn't even come close to saying it outright in ST09. Hence the numerous posts trying to make sense of this and other matters. Ironic that they have the characters spend three years at Starfleet Academy, but don't spend ten seconds showing them making an off-hand comment or two as they leave a lecture on parallel universes. A missed opportunity I suggest.

I'll assume you're joking since both scenes would amount ot the same thing,

The statements, which you've separated by ellipses, answer two different questions. The quote from film shows that an alternate reality was created. The second statement is about the characters knowing the Prime universe is still around. Which is impossible to address with out breaking the fourth wall with exposition or a visit to that universe.






A) It could.
B) The disruption in the time continuum created the alternate time line.

Many-worlds interpretation

Don't know how it could be any clearer.

See my suggestion near top.

A suggestion that is the same thing as what happened in the film only in a different setting?

Maybe with a diagram?

I personally never understood the difficulty of an alternate universe. As it was said, all the TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY still exist, and have not been overwritten like a rewritable DVD. Again, not new to the Trek verse.

 

[UFO]

They say it outright in 09

...

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

Which, I'm afraid, is another way of saying they didn't even come close to saying it outright in ST09. Hence the numerous posts trying to make sense of this and other matters. Ironic that they have the characters spend three years at Starfleet Academy, but don't spend ten seconds showing them making an off-hand comment or two as they leave a lecture on parallel universes. A missed opportunity I suggest.

... both scenes would amount ot the same thing,

I don't believe so. First, because the actual scene doesn't necessarily imply that a parallel universe was created. Second, my scene would be something akin to the old trope where if you make a point of showing a shotgun hanging on a wall, its a good bet at some stage it will be taken down and used. In other words it both prepares you for, and makes clearer, the later scene that was actually in the movie. That scene could be altered a bit to make sure it ties in properly, but the ground work would have been done.

The statements, which you've separated by ellipses, answer two different questions. The quote from film shows that an alternate reality was created. The second statement is about the characters knowing the Prime universe is still around. Which is impossible to address with out breaking the fourth wall with exposition or a visit to that universe.

And yet when taken together they make it clear that since the characters can't know what actually happened we can't either as we only have their words to go by. However a short scene similar to the one I mention would give us a much better idea of what probably happened according to the science of the 23rd century. In any event, I still believe they didn't say outright that a branch occurred in the prime universe.

A) It could.
B) The disruption in the time continuum created the alternate time line.

Many-worlds interpretation

Your response to "B" still seems to leave ambiguity from my point of view (semantic difficulties). Re "Many-worlds interpretation", I don't think we should have to refer to additional resources to understand what might be happening in the film. The thing is, the writers were clearly trying to tell us what the characters thought happened, what they themselves "believed" happen. They just didn't do it as well as the could have, in my view.

Don't know how it could be any clearer.

See my suggestion near top.

A suggestion that is the same thing as what happened in the film only in a different setting?

No, ideally both scenes would work in concert to make things clear. Not "crystal clear" only because we have all heard, over the last few years, what various people think it was supposed to mean.

I personally never understood the difficulty of an alternate universe. As it was said, all the TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY still exist, and have not been overwritten like a rewritable DVD. Again, not new to the Trek verse.

Your right. It's not a question of understanding the concept of "alternate universe" as intended in ST09. Its just a question of what actually was intend via the simple expedient of watching the movie alone. And yes, a holo projection in the classroom they are walking out of would do wonders. Good idea.

 

[fireproof78]

Which, I'm afraid, is another way of saying they didn't even come close to saying it outright in ST09. Hence the numerous posts trying to make sense of this and other matters. Ironic that they have the characters spend three years at Starfleet Academy, but don't spend ten seconds showing them making an off-hand comment or two as they leave a lecture on parallel universes. A missed opportunity I suggest.

... both scenes would amount ot the same thing,

I don't believe so. First, because the actual scene doesn't necessarily imply that a parallel universe was created. Second, my scene would be something akin to the old trope where if you make a point of showing a shotgun hanging on a wall, its a good bet at some stage it will be taken down and used. In other words it both prepares you for, and makes clearer, the later scene that was actually in the movie. That scene could be altered a bit to make sure it ties in properly, but the ground work would have been done.



And yet when taken together they make it clear that since the characters can't know what actually happened we can't either as we only have their words to go by. However a short scene similar to the one I mention would give us a much better idea of what probably happened according to the science of the 23rd century. In any event, I still believe they didn't say outright that a branch occurred in the prime universe.



Your response to "B" still seems to leave ambiguity from my point of view (semantic difficulties). Re "Many-worlds interpretation", I don't think we should have to refer to additional resources to understand what might be happening in the film. The thing is, the writers were clearly trying to tell us what the characters thought happened, what they themselves "believed" happen. They just didn't do it as well as the could have, in my view.

A suggestion that is the same thing as what happened in the film only in a different setting?

No, ideally both scenes would work in concert to make things clear. Not "crystal clear" only because we have all heard, over the last few years, what various people think it was supposed to mean.

I personally never understood the difficulty of an alternate universe. As it was said, all the TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY still exist, and have not been overwritten like a rewritable DVD. Again, not new to the Trek verse.

Your right. It's not a question of understanding the concept of "alternate universe" as intended in ST09. Its just a question of what actually was intend via the simple expedient of watching the movie alone. And yes, a holo projection in the classroom they are walking out of would do wonders. Good idea.

Well, my apologies but just watching film (back in 2009) I was left with the impression that it was alternate universe, akin to the Mirror Universe. A time line that flowed with the same timeline (Prime or what have you) but different due to different preceding events.

That was just my take-away. Obviously, yours will be different.

 

[Amaris]

Maybe with a diagram?

I personally never understood the difficulty of an alternate universe. As it was said, all the TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY still exist, and have not been overwritten like a rewritable DVD. Again, not new to the Trek verse.

The best thing about an A/U is that anything is possible! Unlike the prime universe where everything has been laid out hundreds of years ahead, an A/U changes things. Just think: will Earth survive? Will one of the main crew die? It's possible in an A/U!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Guys, here are the clips.
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUEu7Gb7Cg[/YT]
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMK0qLVt0UU[/YT]
The stardate is 2233.04. Possibility #1, the USS Kelvin flies home and Kirk is born in Iowa; Possibility #2, an angry future Romulan appears and all hell breaks loose.

 

[Commishsleer]

In TOS episodes, City on the Edge of Forever, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Yesteryear, Assignment Earth and maybe even TVH and FC had any changes made in the past affecting one reality - not creating new universes. Then you also had Alternative factor and Mirror Mirror with co-existing universes.
Even ENT had enemies going back in time to destroy 'the present'.

So given that in the Star Trek universe mostly/always going back in time affects the 'current universe' and doesn't create a new additional reality its natural to assume that may have happened in ST09.

 

[Smellmet]

In TOS episodes, City on the Edge of Forever, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Yesteryear, Assignment Earth and maybe even TVH and FC had any changes made in the past affecting one reality - not creating new universes. Then you also had Alternative factor and Mirror Mirror with co-existing universes.
Even ENT had enemies going back in time to destroy 'the present'.

So given that in the Star Trek universe mostly/always going back in time affects the 'current universe' and doesn't create a new additional reality its natural to assume that may have happened in ST09.

I can agree with this, but we've all still experienced the Prime Universe's events, and we can't 'unwatch' them, they in effect still 'happened' - so whether your statement is true or not, the Prime timeline still exists, to me at least.

I think this was a great way to do the reboot rather than just simply tossing everything aside, if nothing else it's provoking good debates with us fans.

It's a question of the viewer suspending disbelief and making peace with it. I have.

 

[Commishsleer]

In TOS episodes, City on the Edge of Forever, Tomorrow is Yesterday, Yesteryear, Assignment Earth and maybe even TVH and FC had any changes made in the past affecting one reality - not creating new universes. Then you also had Alternative factor and Mirror Mirror with co-existing universes.
Even ENT had enemies going back in time to destroy 'the present'.

So given that in the Star Trek universe mostly/always going back in time affects the 'current universe' and doesn't create a new additional reality its natural to assume that may have happened in ST09.

I can agree with this, but we've all still experienced the Prime Universe's events, and we can't 'unwatch' them, they in effect still 'happened' - so whether your statement is true or not, the Prime timeline still exists, to me at least.

I think this was a great way to do the reboot rather than just simply tossing everything aside, if nothing else it's provoking good debates with us fans.

It's a question of the viewer suspending disbelief and making peace with it. I have.

Sorry I actually believe the Prime Universe still exists. If the writers say it exists its good enough for me. Nothing canon in nuTrek says that PrimeTrek has been wiped out, but nothing is saying it exists either.

However the producers, writers, comics and everyone else explained that the Prime Universe was still there within days of ST09 being shown in the US. So I'm surprised when someone pops up 5 years later and says the Prime Universe is gone. Yes it could be gone but it just as well could be there so why not think the best?

 

[KSoldier]

To the OP: I agree that the new films are shlock created to bring in dollars as opposed to being crafted from passion. I see Star Wars-esque action movies with astoundingly poor scripts referencing classic Star Trek as opposed to continuing from it. The direction of the films and actors is rather top notch and while I do not agree with the path the production designers took I cannot fault their quality (save for "engineering"), nor can I deny that I thought the first film to be fun. Aside from those few qualities they are completely vacuous when it comes to the relevant thematics that we all loved about many of the episodes and films, and have little concern being true to the characters, instead developing them in to stereotypes to cash-in on nostalgia that has little to offer but temporary cynical thrills of a generic nature.

Thank god TOS, TNG, DS9, and films 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 will always be around.

One thing for sure, no one will ever accuse J.J. films as being "too cerebral."

 

[Kemaiku]

Neither was the rest of Star Trek, no matter how much it pretended to be.

 

[-Brett-]

I'm not quite clear on what the problem is. We were never going to see that continuity again anyway, so what does it matter if it was erased? A difference that makes no difference is no difference. If your enjoyment of a show depends on whether or not it actually happened, you picked the wrong genre.

 

[KSoldier]

Sorry I actually believe the Prime Universe still exists. If the writers say it exists its good enough for me. Nothing canon in nuTrek says that PrimeTrek has been wiped out, but nothing is saying it exists either.

However the producers, writers, comics and everyone else explained that the Prime Universe was still there within days of ST09 being shown in the US. So I'm surprised when someone pops up 5 years later and says the Prime Universe is gone. Yes it could be gone but it just as well could be there so why not think the best?

Well said.
For the record, I am willing to accept that the prime universe still exists. But that does little to sooth my aching heart for all that preceded the new films, since this new timeline will be the one focused on from this point onward.

In other words, I do not see any films bringing us back to Vulcan in the previous timeline. For filmmaking purposes, I'm pretty sure that the production company considers that timeline "dead."

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm not quite clear on what the problem is. We were never going to see that continuity again anyway, so what does it matter if it was erased? A difference that makes no difference is no difference. If your enjoyment of a show depends on whether or not it actually happened, you picked the wrong genre.

Good point. Now I personally believe the clear intent of the film was that the Prime Universe still existed, but even still the whole debate is akin to arguing about how many Organians can dance on the head of the pin.

It doesn't make any practical difference when it comes to watching the new movies.

 

[F. King Daniel]

To the OP: I agree that the new films are shlock created to bring in dollars as opposed to being crafted from passion. I see Star Wars-esque action movies with astoundingly poor scripts referencing classic Star Trek as opposed to continuing from it. The direction of the films and actors is rather top notch and while I do not agree with the path the production designers took I cannot fault their quality (save for "engineering"), nor can I deny that I thought the first film to be fun. Aside from those few qualities they are completely vacuous when it comes to the relevant thematics that we all loved about many of the episodes and films, and have little concern being true to the characters, instead developing them in to stereotypes to cash-in on nostalgia that has little to offer but temporary cynical thrills of a generic nature.

Thank god TOS, TNG, DS9, and films 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 will always be around.

One thing for sure, no one will ever accuse J.J. films as being "too cerebral."

In fairness, no one's accused Trek of that since 1965.

http://io9.com/was-star-trek-ever-really-intelligent-grown-up-science-1563605154

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I'm not quite clear on what the problem is. We were never going to see that continuity again anyway, so what does it matter if it was erased? A difference that makes no difference is no difference. If your enjoyment of a show depends on whether or not it actually happened, you picked the wrong genre.

Good point. Now I personally believe the clear intent of the film was that the Prime Universe still existed, but even still the whole debate is akin to arguing about how many Organians can dance on the head of the pin.

It doesn't make any practical difference when it comes to watching the new movies.

Weeeelll, given that Organians can be non-corporeal beings, I would say that it is possible to have 'multiple' individuals on a head of a pin at any time. Unless, there is some sort of space in their non-corporeal state that would crowd them on said head of pin...

 

[Greg Cox]

I'm not quite clear on what the problem is. We were never going to see that continuity again anyway, so what does it matter if it was erased? A difference that makes no difference is no difference. If your enjoyment of a show depends on whether or not it actually happened, you picked the wrong genre.

Good point. Now I personally believe the clear intent of the film was that the Prime Universe still existed, but even still the whole debate is akin to arguing about how many Organians can dance on the head of the pin.

It doesn't make any practical difference when it comes to watching the new movies.

Weeeelll, given that Organians can be non-corporeal beings, I would say that it is possible to have 'multiple' individuals on a head of a pin at any time. Unless, there is some sort of space in their non-corporeal state that would crowd them on said head of pin...

Okay, now we're getting somewhere . . ..