Hated it

[SeerSGB]

Still in a place called "complete irrelevance to the Trek franchise", as usual.

Come on, it was begging for it. It does have some connection with Lloyd/Kruge...

Oh hell...now I have the image of Doc Brown collapsing onto the front bumper of the DeLorean and saying "You Klingon bastard, you've killed Enstien."

 

[M'Sharak]

Am I one of the only ones who hated the Trek reboot?

No you aren't alone, but you posted in the NuTrek apologist/rabid fan forum, hence the hate-flame posts.

If you think about it, if you really wanted to have a open discussion about either of the Abrams Trek movies, the Star Trek Movies XI+ forum is probably the last place you'd want to do it.

Problem is, if you do open a thread specifically about the Abrams movies in the General Trek Discussion forum, the mods will likely move it here. End of open discussion with multiple viewpoints and opinions, a (usually) polite give and respond debate.

If the board members who basically live in here would tone it down, it would be a much more entertaining forum to visit.

There's never been a problem with having a reasonable discussion here; in fact, I regularly encourage that (with the odd reminder here and there) from both those who like the movies and those who don't, so I think it's toned down just fine.

Thanks for the input, though.




Aaaand back to topic.

 

[BillJ]

Am I one of the only ones who hated the Trek reboot?

No you aren't alone, but you posted in the NuTrek apologist/rabid fan forum, hence the hate-flame posts.

If you think about it, if you really wanted to have a open discussion about either of the Abrams Trek movies, the Star Trek Movies XI+ forum is probably the last place you'd want to do it.

Problem is, if you do open a thread specifically about the Abrams movies in the General Trek Discussion forum, the mods will likely move it here. End of open discussion with multiple viewpoints and opinions, a (usually) polite give and respond debate.

If the board members who basically live in here would tone it down, it would be a much more entertaining forum to visit.

This is non-sense. If someone points out the obvious flaws in an argument, somehow it is no longer an entertaining forum to visit?

Sounds like sour grapes from people that don't like the movies but can't really defend why. So they pick out things that Star Trek has always done and then say it isn't fair to compare the various materials when called on it.

 

[M'Sharak]

**ahem**

Aaaand back to topic.

 

[BillJ]

**ahem**

Aaaand back to topic.

Apologies. Quoted it before seeing your response.

 

[Nerys Myk]

My best friend hates the films. I like them. It's a bit like discussing politics.

 

[T'Girl]

No - Spock, for whatever reason ( the vagaries of red matter blackhole time travel ), ends up in the universe created by Nero's arrival. This is presumably because they went into the same red matter black hole as opposed to different ones.

Exactly, it spat both of them out into the same alternate universe.

That Nero was "spat" into an alternate universe makes more sense than he entered the prime in the past and then created a branch.

It would certainly explain how Spock didn't end up in the existing prime past years after Nero created his branch..

 

[Nerys Myk]

No - Spock, for whatever reason ( the vagaries of red matter blackhole time travel ), ends up in the universe created by Nero's arrival. This is presumably because they went into the same red matter black hole as opposed to different ones.

Exactly, it spat both of them out into the same alternate universe.

That Nero was "spat" into an alternate universe makes more sense than he entered the prime in the past and then created a branch.

It would certainly explain how Spock didn't end up in the existing prime past years after Nero created his branch..

Six of one half a dozen of the other.

 

[SeerSGB]

No - Spock, for whatever reason ( the vagaries of red matter blackhole time travel ), ends up in the universe created by Nero's arrival. This is presumably because they went into the same red matter black hole as opposed to different ones.

Exactly, it spat both of them out into the same alternate universe.

That Nero was "spat" into an alternate universe makes more sense than he entered the prime in the past and then created a branch.

It would certainly explain how Spock didn't end up in the existing prime past years after Nero created his branch..

Actually it can still work with Nero creating the branch.

• Nero gets tossed back in time
• Kelvin gets destroyed.
• This distorts the temporal anomaly within the black-hole.
• Spock gets spat out into the new branch timeline cause Nero distorted the anomaly. Maybe collapsing that point of exit, or shifting it's terminus point.
• Which might account for why Spock showed up years later, he got "rebounded", for lack of a better term, and kicked out the last/new exit that was still in the anomaly.

 

[Kemaiku]

For as long as the collapsed Hobus star/red matter anomaly was open, it's other terminus/ii where anchoered in the alternate universe.

For every one second that passed in the Prime Universe, it seems if anything passed through, it appeared that many years on from Nero.

But it looks like only something passing through from the other end, causes an opening in the NuVerse, depending how long it's open, it could mean hundreds of years of oppertunity for something to still pass through, if any rescue ships are about well, two minutes away. Which is unlikely.

 

[Dukhat]

That Nero was "spat" into an alternate universe makes more sense than he entered the prime in the past and then created a branch.

Huh? How does that make "more sense?" If the universe Nero was spat into was already an alternate universe, then that defeats the purpose of him going back in time in the first place.

It would certainly explain how Spock didn't end up in the existing prime past years after Nero created his branch..

Not sure why this is so difficult. Nero and Spock get thrown into the past at the same time. However, Nero emerges first, causing an alternate branch to form. Once Spock emerges, it's into this new branch. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Amaris]

^ Yeah, I thought that was clear, too.

 

[SeerSGB]

Here's a way to "fix" the timeline, not that it needs it but...

Last movie with these characters. Major war, the Federation is getting its nuts kicked. Enterprise gets kicked back in time to the moment before the Narada arrives. They've got a choice: Stop Nero, save Vulcan, Kirk's father, save the Federation all that, but they erase this version of them from history. Typical back and forth, hand wringing, drama. At the end, they make the call: they're changing history. Narada shows up, and just as the Kelvin's about to get pounded: Enterprise swoops in covers for her while she gets away and Kirk and Nero go at it again. History is reset to "normal".

 

[Dukhat]

But this universe doesn't need to be "fixed." It's a parallel universe existing alongside the original one.

 

[MacLeod]

Out of the two I would say on balance I prefer ST09 to STID, sure STID had it's moments but they could simply have dropped the fact that Harrison was Khan and they could really have told the same story. After all who is to say that Khan and his followers were the only group of genetically engineered humans to leave/be exiled from Earth.

 

[SeerSGB]

Out of the two I would say on balance I prefer ST09 to STID, sure STID had it's moments but they could simply have dropped the fact that Harrison was Khan and they could really have told the same story. After all who is to say that Khan and his followers were the only group of genetically engineered humans to leave/be exiled from Earth.

ST 09 > STID. STID is a good little fast paced, action movie...and that's the problem. Just as your getting into waiting to know more about something it's on to the next thing. STID feels like two movies crammed down into one. They had the material for two, why they didn't go that route, I've no clue.

 

[UFO]

That Nero was "spat" into an alternate universe makes more sense than he entered the prime in the past and then created a branch.

Huh? How does that make "more sense?" If the universe Nero was spat into was already an alternate universe, then that defeats the purpose of him going back in time in the first place.

What purpose would that be? Going back in time was an unforeseen accident wasn't it? Anyway, it makes sense because it provides a way around the "multiple branching from the Prime timeline problem" as Elvira explained.

It would certainly explain how Spock didn't end up in the existing prime past years after Nero created his branch..

Not sure why this is so difficult. Nero and Spock get thrown into the past at the same time. However, Nero emerges first, causing an alternate branch to form. Once Spock emerges, it's into this new branch. Makes perfect sense.

I think the trips through the wormhole by Nero and Spock, are better viewed as discrete events as indicated by the gap in time between their arrivals (Doubtless they took a slightly different trajectory around the singularity or some such). Each should have therefore emerged in the Prime timeline's past. Thus creating two separate branches. Once the first branch universe was created, it should have been "sealed off".

This is why Timo and others have had to come up with some sort of workaround, usually suggesting the wormhole somehow remains open and connected to the same branch over a period of 25 years. But there a a number of problems with that, including the aforementioned 25 year gap: Why, for example, did nobody report finding a trace of the opening? They must have been looking. And didn't the opening change location for some reason?

Timo's recent effort tries to overcome those problems of course, but as far as I can see, the wormhole closed after the Narada came through so was not likely to be effected by the Kelvin's demise (I guess its hard to spot a black-hole without the proper sensors when nothing is coming out of it of course! ). Anyway the Kelvin would have shielded the wormhole from the Kelvins destruction. Moreover the Kelvin was destroyed some time after the Narada's emergence, so it seems unlikely to have been the reason the Jellyfish was held up. It makes sense there can't have been much time between them entering the wormhole and Spock later describes his trip as having taken only a few seconds. This isn't an issue if we assume discrete time travel events that just happen to come out in different time periods.

 

[Commishsleer]

^ Yeah, I thought that was clear, too.

Actually I didn't think it was clear from watching the movies.
It was never stated that a new universe was created and the old one still existed.

I accept that it did happen as my TOS DVDs and blu-rays still exist. TNG is still shown on TV. They're still selling Prime Trek merchandise. No need to panic.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^ Yeah, I thought that was clear, too.

Actually I didn't think it was clear from watching the movies.
It was never stated that a new universe was created and the old one still existed.

I accept that it did happen as my TOS DVDs and blu-rays still exist. TNG is still shown on TV. They're still selling Prime Trek merchandise. No need to panic.

They say it outright in 09

KIRK: There won't be a next engagement. By the time we've gathered, it'll be too late. But you say he's from the future, knows what's going to happen, then the logical thing is to be unpredictable.
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

There's really no way the characters can know or say the Prime Universe is still there, but the Many Worlds Interpretation says it is ( as do the writers/producers).

 

[Dukhat]

What purpose would that be? Going back in time was an unforeseen accident wasn't it? Anyway, it makes sense because it provides a way around the "multiple branching from the Prime timeline problem" as Elvira explained.

It doesn't matter what the circumstances were. The whole point of creating the alternate universe was so that the writers didn't have to adhere to 40+ years of Trek canon. If all they wanted to do was make a complete reboot, then Nero's going back in time and changing things wouldn't have been necessary. But they did it that way so that the Prime universe would still be acknowledged and still exist.

==I think the trips through the wormhole by Nero and Spock, are better viewed as discrete events as indicated by the gap in time between their arrivals (Doubtless they took a slightly different trajectory around the singularity or some such). Each should have therefore emerged in the Prime timeline's past. Thus creating two separate branches. Once the first branch universe was created, it should have been "sealed off".

Read what I wrote again. They both left the Prime universe at the same time. Nero's incursion changed things so that when Spock arrived, he arrived in the universe Nero created. How is this so difficult to comprehend? It was even explained in the movie.

This is why Timo and others have had to come up with some sort of workaround, usually suggesting the wormhole somehow remains open and connected to the same branch over a period of 25 years. But there a a number of problems with that, including the aforementioned 25 year gap: Why, for example, did nobody report finding a trace of the opening? They must have been looking. And didn't the opening change location for some reason?

Timo's recent effort tries to overcome those problems of course, but as far as I can see, the wormhole closed after the Narada came through so was not likely to be effected by the Kelvin's demise (I guess its hard to spot a black-hole without the proper sensors when nothing is coming out of it of course! ). Anyway the Kelvin would have shielded the wormhole from the Kelvins destruction. Moreover the Kelvin was destroyed some time after the Narada's emergence, so it seems unlikely to have been the reason the Jellyfish was held up. It makes sense there can't have been much time between them entering the wormhole and Spock later describes his trip as having taken only a few seconds. This isn't an issue if we assume discrete time travel events that just happen to come out in different time periods.

Sorry, I don't need convoluted explanations for what I saw. I understood it just fine, along with the explanation the movie gave.