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Has there ever been a sequel so stupid you refused to accept it?

Voyager and Enterprise. It's one thing to contradict established continuity, but Voy and Ent usually contradicted it for neither a good reason nor with a new idea that was better. In fact, the new idea, whatever it was, was almost always worse.

Gundam Seed Destiny--the first was pretty terrible, but the sequel series was an abomination, totally shitting on the only realy good part of GS, which was the final ten or so episodes. Likewise, they introduced new characters even more vile than the first series' most obnoxious ones and resolved cliffhangers in the cheapest, most insulting way I've ever seen in a program.

The Matrix Revolutions--I liked Reloaded, but don't want to merely recapitulate the arguments of how and why Revolutions destroyed the franchise here.

The Shrek followups. The first Shrek was an alright watch-it-once comedy. It was, as I already knew from family members who watched it over and over, a formula prone to producing some of the most annoying cinema in the world given repetition.

And fucking Austin Powers 3, now that I'm reminded of Mike Meyers' tragic talent-collapse. This probably makes me the angriest, because the premise (Goldmember the disgusting sight gag) doesn't even look good on paper, and yet it suggests immediately an excellent premise. I can understand how I can easily imagine the best Austin Powers film, centered around conflict with a 1970s version, or even a time-travel-created 1970s doppelganger, of Austin. Played relatively straighter, this would develop an HST-like theme of the 1960s counterculture's fall from grace, which is potentially much funnier (not to say more emotionally involving) that some motherfucker who eats his own skin.

Batman Begins. Okay, it's better than Batman and Robin, but this movie still sucks. It's not exactly a sequel, but I really do hate it for rebooting the Batman franchise in such a dull (movie is boring), disrespectful (Ra's al-Ghul) stupid (microwave gun?!) manner. The Dark Knight is a lot better, and I do consider it a good movie. And yet it suffers profoundly from a bloated running time and plot, a ridiculous, disbelief-dropping xanatos gambit on the Joker's part, and that sad, artless notion of the mid-Noughties where any mention of terrorism or civil liberties was equated mechanically with some kind of relevance, no matter how strained and nonsensical the metaphor is. For the example par excellence, watch and "enjoy" nuBSG's descent into crapitude with the Caprica Arc.

On the other hand, I can find a lot of redeeming qualities in Terminator 3 (good action setpieces; tough and uncompromising ending) and Spider-Man 3 (thought Emo Peter Parker was one of the best comic relief scenes in recent memory; loved Topher Graas' Eddie Brock). My credibility: gone? :(
 
On the other hand, I can find a lot of redeeming qualities in Terminator 3 (good action setpieces; tough and uncompromising ending) and Spider-Man 3 (thought Emo Peter Parker was one of the best comic relief scenes in recent memory; loved Topher Graas' Eddie Brock). My credibility: gone? :(

No. If anything, I applaud you for having the balls to admit that.
 
^Thanks. :)

Although in full disclosure, SM3 is a deeply flawed movie. Sandman was totally, totally unnecessary. Convenient amnesia is a terrible plot device. And the only reason I own SM3 is because it came with my PS3, and for some reason was not stolen along with all the other BDs sitting next to the console (there's a joke there for those willing to make it :p ).

But the worst bit is the method by which the venom-suit came to Peter's possession. That was balls-to-the-wall ridiculous. I didn't expect them to recreate the Secret Wars, or anything, but given that the last two films established Peter's association with the owner of, you know, a biotechnological weapons manufacturer, I'm sure that somehow a terrestrial origin of the symbiont ("symbiote") could have been envisioned with little work, more convincing reactions, and possibly even more economical set-up...

That said, while Marvel/Sony gets flack for forcing Venom onto Raimi, I almost think that Raimi should have been doing a Venom film in the first place. I mean... Sandman. C'mon. It's like a Batman film where he fights the Calendar Man.

Edit: Now Temple Fugate, the Clock King, that would be frickin' sweet. Of course, Samuel L. Jackson fought the Clock King on the silver screen once, in 2002's excellent Changing Lanes.
 
But the worst bit is the method by which the venom-suit came to Peter's possession. That was balls-to-the-wall ridiculous. I didn't expect them to recreate the Secret Wars, or anything, but given that the last two films established Peter's association with the owner of, you know, a biotechnological weapons manufacturer, I'm sure that somehow a terrestrial origin of the symbiont ("symbiote") could have been envisioned with little work, more convincing reactions, and possibly even more economical set-up...

Not to mention they went out of their way to introduce JJJ's astronaut son in SM2. The shuttle crash would have been a much more badass sequence to open SM3 with.
 
Also would have wasted too much time, too much money, has too little of a payoff and would've just made them bring back the John Jameson/MJ relationship that the writers didn't want to bring up again (since it was so contrived in the first place).

SM3 shouldn't have had Venom in it at all, it should've been entirely about the conclusion to the Goblin saga set up in the first two movies. Want new villains since the Goblin would be too much of a repeat? Make Harry create Spider-Slayers, Shocker, Rhino and other teched out villains using OsCorp programs Norman was working on while using his money to ruin Peter and MJ's civilian lives. Establish that Harry moved on with his lovelife and is engaged to Liz Allen.

Then conclude with a recreation of "Spectacular Spider-Man 200" with Harry dying of the Goblin formula overdose after he saves Peter from his ultimate deathtrap.
 
Batman Begins. Okay, it's better than Batman and Robin, but this movie still sucks. It's not exactly a sequel, but I really do hate it for rebooting the Batman franchise in such a dull (movie is boring), disrespectful (Ra's al-Ghul) stupid (microwave gun?!) manner.
Sing it, hombre! :)

The shuttle crash would have been a much more badass sequence to open SM3 with.
The Core got there first. ;)
 
I would have to say The Legend of Zorro, it was a major waste of my time.

As well as the Son of The Mask.
 
Myasishchev, can I be your new best friend?

I'm honestly surprised Begins is so universally scoffed at here. Everywhere else in the world, it was ticketed as the be-all and end-all of film making. I thought it was absolute garbage! I didn't even know Qui-Gon Jinn was supposed to be Ra, and Ra was one of my favorites! Plus if you had Ra, and a character similar to his daughter as the love interest... why not just make her the daughter, Talia? Why this new "Rachel"? I'm not even going to get into my prewritten 100,000 word essay on everything wrong with Katie Holmes, I can sum it up with this:

(Rachel attempts to go into the Quarantine Zone affected by the Scarecrow's biological agent).
Rachel: "Officer, I am a Gotham City District Attorney. Please let me pass."

AND HE DOES IT!! As if D.A.s are crime fighters? They don't even carry, nor are they trained on the operation of, firearms or other law enforcement tools! They have briefcases with papers! Plus, even if she was the most badass crime fighter ever, and could kill you with a paper clip, she still would suffer (and DOES suffer) the effects of the agent. That's why it's in QUARANTINE! It just BLOWS my mind that after all the rewrites, THAT got through? That's something a 5 year old makes up for his characters when he's in a corner in his imagination play time story.

Thank you, thank you all for realizing Begins was really an awful movie. Dark Knight is entertaining, though it's quite overblown (go to ANY movie on IMDB, someone has compared it to Dark Knight).

Edit: One thing I haven't seen touched upon in Spider-man 3 is the BS plot point that Sandman killed Uncle Ben, and is still alive... really? REALLY? Where was he in the first one during the car chase? I think in the flashback he might have just stood there in shock while his partner took off, but then don't you think Ben would point to the guy? That's all SO trivial, though, because the real tragedy is ruining Spider-man's origin. He no longer feels guilt over it. That was one of the freshest and most original stories for a super hero; he had the power to help but chose to ignore it and it cost him his father figure. With great power there must also come great responsibility.

Gone.

Where have all the decent stories gone?

Gone for special effects, every one.
 
Matrix sequels do not exist.
Star Wars prequels are actually original Rifftrax movies.
Highlander 2 is garbage.
Terminator Salvation does not exist too.
 
For me, it has to be the blisteringly awful Alien 3.

It was better than Alien Resurrection.

Yeah, I went there.

No Alien Ressurection wasn't great but Joss did his best and it was lightyears ahead of Alien 3, worst sequal of all time, not only terrible in itself but ruins your enjoyment of the brilliant Alien/Aliens.

As for Mr Weyoun showing up I don't have a problem with that, he could be an android, clone or just a descendent that looks like the guy from AvP.

Highlander 2 is also pretty out there, you wonder if the writer bothered to watchvthe first film? Halloween is appalling and I refuse to accept it
 
Gaith, Rett, let us calcify this hate in our hearts with a short (roll with it) essay on how Ra's al-Ghul was reduced in quality by, and in turn reduced in quality, the film Batman Begins:

Point 1: I kinda-sorta-kinda thought Liam Neeson maybe wasn't the right man for the part. Unfortunately, Omar Sharif was too busy headbutting Paris cops and being very, very old to appear in the role, so this is a slidable offense, and I waver on it even as I type it.

Point 2: Ra's was not actually supposed to be in this movie. My theory is that Liam Neeson started reading lines from a completely different version of the film that did have Ra's al-Ghul, but Nolan forgot they were in the movie, and instead of editing them out, he did rewrites and reshoots to fit them in. The result was box office gold, and a mess of an artistic statement.

In greater seriousness, Nolan originally seemed intent on filming Batman: Year One, even including the bizarre bats-love-my-sonics bit which I'm not totally sure even worked as anything more than a bad deus ex machina in Miller's original book.

But if this is so, I suggest that he should have written or procured a script actually based on Batman: Year One. I wish emphatically that Zack Snyder had directed this; for the man's artistic faults, he knows how to faithfully adapt a comic beyond all economic reason, and that's respectable.

Point 3: Obviously, Roman Falcone (who is the big bad in B:YO, but a minor player in Begins and TDK)--this guy does not have great potential as a cinematic Batman villain. So I do understand why Batman: Year One wasn't used as a shooting script.

So which villain do you pick? Well, if you're afflicted with Batman Returns syndrome, you pick two. And the Batman franchise is incurably infected.

Other than Batman itself--and arguably TDK, and I'll point immediately to Dent--no Batman movie has been able to resist overmining the rich vein of Batman's rogues gallery. Consequently, every Batman except Batman has been weakened considerably by its inability to focus on a single villain. Despite an apparent reliance on an arithmetic that Catwoman + Penguin = Joker, I'm afraid that's just not how stories work.

Really, what I find to be the greatest loss in Batman Begins isn't Ra's' unaccountable presence, but more how that presence forced a rationing of Scarecrow. Now, the Scarecrow is not the most iconic Batman villain (he's like maybe number eight), but at the same time he's potentially one of the most diabolical. And Cillian Murphy's Scarecrow was excellent and terrifying. At turns, if not in a sustained and consistent manner, he was actually much scarier than either Nicholson's or Ledger's Joker! We would have been spoiled to have him as our principal and sole antagonist.

But, because of Batman Return-syndrome, we got two antagonists, each of whom stepped on each other's dramatic toes and watered down each other's role. Sadly, this disease is contagious, with superhero films being particularly susceptible, having infected Spider-Man 3, X-Men 3, and (from what I've read) Iron Man 2. Luckily franchises outside of the superhero genre seem to be immune--so far. But nasty rumors circulate that Kirk will be faced with the unbeatable team-up of Khan Noonien Singh and NOMAD in Star Trek 12.*

Thus afflicted, Begins turned to Ra's. Ra's is arguably the bigger name and certainly the more defining Batman villain. But what makes Ra's awesome? In descending order: 1)his ecoterroristic campaign to pare the human population down to a manageable size; 2)his intellectual and physical prowess, manifested in his ability to deduce Batman's secret identity, a feat only matched afaik by Bane; 3)his aforementioned daughter, Talia, and her relationship to Bruce; 4)the League of Assassins; 5)and his immortality.

We got half of (2) (I was never convinced Ra's was all that smart in Batman Begins, and the script precluded a great detective being made of Ra's al-Ghul), (4) (well, he had a League). We got a very wimpy, nonsensical version of (1). We got (3) and (5) not at all.

BR-syndrome can contort scripts all out of proportion. This is exactly what happened with Begins--the entire jeopardy plot with the "microwave gun" is an excuse to tie the Scarecrow's fear drug in with Ra's' ill-defined, apparent goal of maybe killing a lot of people for some reason. This also led to one of the most preposterous action set-pieces since... well, certainly no further back than the previous Batman movie. : /

Point 2 Returns (but with only one villain): Ra's is a villain for a matured Batman. Despite an apparent obsession with it in Begins, Ra's' scope is not Gotham, it is the globe; a wet-behind-the-cowl Batman is not his enemy yet. Futher, Ra's al-Ghul, father of Talia and grandfather of Damien Wayne, makes for a personal, internal conflict, and sets up a potentially even greater rival in Talia. Ra's al-Ghul the random genocidal maniac does not. Ra's al-Ghul is a villain for Batman's middle or even his end, not Batman's beginning.

The closest we get to this global scope:

Only a cynical man would call what these people have "lives", Wayne. Crime. Despair. This is not how man was supposed to live. The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome, loaded trade ships with plague rats, burned London to the ground. Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence, we return to restore the balance.
There is so much wrong with this statement I could write another thesis on it. In brief:

1)does "League of Shadows" mean "Visigoths"? If so, how did this restore balance, considering things more or less continued trucking along exactly as they had until the Renaissance, except without central political control?;

2)London burned to the ground at the pinnacle of decadence? Assuming this means the Great Fire of London, this happened in 1666; and this "restored balance" how? By having them go on to build an empire that encompassed one quarter of the planet? Maybe the League of Shadows is simply incompetent. Or maybe Ra's means the 1940 Second Great Fire of London, which astute readers of history will infer happened during the Blitz, and who will recognize that he is equating his League of Shadows to the fucking Nazis. Even more astute students will recall the Nazis were rather corrupt. Although I'll grant World War II solved any putative European population problem.

3)These "Plague rats," however... I'm thinking about this, and it could be potentially cool. Spreading a plague is exactly what Ra's al-Ghul would do (and has attempted to do, in, like, every single appearance). It actually, very, very, very indirectly and probably accidentally establishes a genius operating in this League of Shadows, perhaps Ra's himself, because it implies a germ theory of disease, which I don't have to explain was not exactly widely known during the Black Plague. At the least, it would require knowing that rats, omnipresent critters in the 14th 15th centuries, spread the plague through equally omnipresent fleas--talk about some serious science! But isn't it kind of a bringdown that Ra's went from this kind of world-changing genocide, from wiping out perhaps two-thirds the population of a continent, to attempting to frighten residents of downtown Gotham with a train, a microwave gun and hallucinogenic steam?

Minor note: I think the pattern that we have discerned here is that any movie where Liam Neeson utters the phrase "restore the balance" is likely to be pretty crappy. :(

Now, for a positive note to end on... I did sort of like the twistiness that Henri Ducard was Ra's all along. But is this kind of Shyamalaning really worth the depreciation of one of the great Batman antagonists?

Hint: No.

*But at least it isn't Superman Sequelitis, which contractually require Lex Luthor to appear, regardless of his character's relevance to the plot, any resemblance to the source material, or indeed anything like actual audience interest--that said, Kevin Spacey was the bomb in Returns, yo.
 
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For me, it has to be the blisteringly awful Alien 3.

It was better than Alien Resurrection.

Yeah, I went there.

No Alien Ressurection wasn't great but Joss did his best and it was lightyears ahead of Alien 3, worst sequal of all time, not only terrible in itself but ruins your enjoyment of the brilliant Alien/Aliens.

No, it returns the the feeling of Alien rather than betraying it like Aliens did.
 
It was better than Alien Resurrection.

Yeah, I went there.

No Alien Ressurection wasn't great but Joss did his best and it was lightyears ahead of Alien 3, worst sequal of all time, not only terrible in itself but ruins your enjoyment of the brilliant Alien/Aliens.

No, it returns the the feeling of Alien rather than betraying it like Aliens did.

No, Alien and Aliens are very alike, especially in terms of their endings which the other eps also stick with, four survivors or one single survivor (plus cat). Alien 4 is very much a combination of Alien and Aliens with a hefty dose of the Poesidon adventure thrown in, it goes back to the spirit shared the terrific first 2 and rightfully ignores the tavesty of 3.
 
Escape From L.A.

Russell really came to the party as Snake, but he should have been kept away from the development side of things.

Carpenter should have gone back to his gritty/antihero/Rio Bravo/fucktheworld roots with this very disappointing sequel.

The Mighty Bruce Campbell as the Surgeon General was inspirational, though.
 
Whoa there, Myasishchev! That's quite an essay indeed. :) And I'm no Batman scholar myself, so I don't care about the comics, only about the quality of the films themselves. ;)

That said, you do get to a lot of the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence, we return to restore the balance.
There is so much wrong with this statement I could write another thesis on it.
Aye, I could have thrown my shoe at the theater screen with that line. I've got nothing against stupid - I love me my LXG - but the stupid must occur within the time frame of the movie's present, or be hard-wired into the story's concept. For BB to pretend it's realistic and then throw a line like that in, with no sign that it's meant to be BS, is just crap on a stick.

Really, what I find to be the greatest loss in Batman Begins isn't Ra's' unaccountable presence, but more how that presence forced a rationing of Scarecrow.
Not sure I can agree there. What can a crazy with glorified pepper spray do against a heavily armed billionaire? The efficiency of the Joker's henchmen in TDK was itself iffy, but at least the result was a fair fight.

Minor note: I think the pattern that we have discerned here is that any movie where Liam Neeson utters the phrase "restore the balance" is likely to be pretty crappy. :(
:rommie:

that said, Kevin Spacey was the bomb in Returns, yo.
That he was. Mick Lasalle, SF Chronicle:
Actually, Spacey is so good that he's almost a problem. Who are you going to root for, the intelligent, enterprising human being with opera playing on the stereo, or this bulked-up space alien who's scared of a pretty girl? Eventually, Superman regains our allegiance, but the fact that it ever comes into question is a mark of what's missing. Kidder and Reeve always were the most likable people in their "Superman" movies. Here, Routh comes in a distant second to Spacey, and Bosworth isn't in the running.
:p
 
Myasishchev, it all makes sense now. I couldn't understand why I didn't even know Ra's was in the movie until reading the plot synopsis on wiki. I thought it was because I fell asleep in the theater.

Excellent work, sir. You should write these for a living, if you don't already.
 
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