Having dimples may have been the man's only saving grace.
has chuckles become a generic slur against native Americans?
- Thread starter Guy Gardener
- Start date
Yeah, but Lynx doesn't mention those. He says that Chakotay's portrayal is less stereotypical--and less offensive--than Chekov's or Picard's.
I think it's way worse, but then, I what do I know?
I wrote that I found Chekov worse, I mean you could find such Russians in the 1950's but not now and probably not in the 23th century either.
I wrote that Picard and Scotty were stereotypes as well, not worse or better than anyone.
I wanted to state that stereotypes seem to be common in many TV shows when it comes to nationality and heritage and that Chakotay isn't the only example. Obviously I should have stayed out of this debate.
Interesting that no one did seem to notice this comment from me:
It was in the same post!
And yes, "Tattoo" was a total disaster. here they had the opportunity to present a realistic background story for Chakotay, I mean there were things in his past which were intersting, his relation to his father and his decision to join Starfleet and later, his decision to become a Maquis. And they did blow it all with this stupid "sky-spirit" rubbish.
What they could have done, besides giving Chakotay a decent background with a real tribe was to totally omit the "sky spirit" crap. Instead Chakotay could have been stranded on some planet, maybe after some shuttle crash or failed expedition which did remind him about his past and we could have had some interesting flashbacks to that.
Funniest episode ever - perhaps funniest sitcom episode ever. The last time I saw it I laughed until I cried.
Anyway, carry on...
A slur? I don't think so. Vague yes, and there were some contradictions in what he believed sure.
But he was a good, noble, intelligent and honest character. Historical hiccups aside, isn't that what counts?
But he was a good, noble, intelligent and honest character. Historical hiccups aside, isn't that what counts?
I always liked the character - and I like the actor, too. Beltran's not perfect by any means (he had episodes he kind of sleepwalked through, partly because he wasn't given enough to do), but he's perfectly competent, and plus he's nice to look at, which doesn't hurt. 
But a more descriptive background than "generic Native American" would have been really good - it would have been more respectful of the character.
But a more descriptive background than "generic Native American" would have been really good - it would have been more respectful of the character.
"A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer in your pants..."
freak said:Exodus: your first comment was funny.Even though I'm a huge fan of his, I laughed at that. Cause in "Big Love", he's indeed opening a casino believe it or not.
I also think that Chakotay is a stereotype of Native Americans. I think that is why a lot of posters have issues with his character.
Any screen shots of him online? I have basic cable.
JustKate said:I always liked the character - and I like the actor, too. Beltran's not perfect by any means (he had episodes he kind of sleepwalked through, partly because he wasn't given enough to do), but he's perfectly competent, and plus he's nice to look at, which doesn't hurt.
And here, there've been recent threads commenting that Paramount had ordered the "human" characters to downplay emotions. As I posted in that thread, that left the Doctor with the most animated personality--except for when the writers made Janeway crazy, so we got her either emotionally toned down OR nutty.
Paramount really did a disservice to the show, the actors, the fans, and the franchise.
Anyone who'd call someone a bigot or racist over comments or assumptions made out of ignorance is either looking for a fight in the first place, or doesn't know the meaning of the two aforementioned words. Sure, having someone who's uninformed about a certain culture misrepresenting said culture in public is sure to ruffle some feathers, but putting an inadvertant blunder on par with racism would be beyond the pale.
You said "ruffle feathers" while talking about talking respectfully to Native Americans.
Wow.
Wow.
I totally agree on that. Chakotay is a good character, despite those flaws.
As for racial slurs, I don't think that those who created the show are racists in any way, they were only sloppy in their writing and when it came to creating characters with believeable backgrounds. Not to mention that they were terribly bad in describing emotions and relationships between people.
And/or Aliens/AI too.
Then there's obectifphellia to consider which they would probably be crap at too.
Then there's obectifphellia to consider which they would probably be crap at too.
Agreed.
I also feel the same when people are labeled homophobic due to the same reasons.
However, these things do happen.
The character of Chakotay was a sort of Indian for all seasons in my opinion with a vague Indian base and it was mainly due to sloppy follow through from the Clown College.
The Indian in me wasn't offended because he was still a man of principle, strong in his beliefs and convictions and respectful of life in all its forms. I take that as the best part of being Indian. I also remember reading that Beltran had suggested the Mayan background as his Mexican hertiage has Native roots. Course he might have wanted to suggest or injected some actual facts in there also.
However the Irish in me wanted to put my foot through the TV during the stupid Up the Down Ladder or whatever that TNG episode was. Talk about sterotyping! What in the wide, wide world of sports was that crap?
I mean Jeez...do they really need to play to the impression that people have of the Irish being nothing but drunks and layabout goobers? We did do other things with our time than get sh*tfaced and cut up bars of green stripped soap!
Who ever wrote that should be beat up side the head with a bag of potatoes, repeatedly, until they realize the error of their ways.
Seriously Trek doesn't do real Human cultures well and there is no excuse with the vast array of knowledge that is currently available.
The Indian in me wasn't offended because he was still a man of principle, strong in his beliefs and convictions and respectful of life in all its forms. I take that as the best part of being Indian. I also remember reading that Beltran had suggested the Mayan background as his Mexican hertiage has Native roots. Course he might have wanted to suggest or injected some actual facts in there also.
However the Irish in me wanted to put my foot through the TV during the stupid Up the Down Ladder or whatever that TNG episode was. Talk about sterotyping! What in the wide, wide world of sports was that crap?
I mean Jeez...do they really need to play to the impression that people have of the Irish being nothing but drunks and layabout goobers? We did do other things with our time than get sh*tfaced and cut up bars of green stripped soap!
Who ever wrote that should be beat up side the head with a bag of potatoes, repeatedly, until they realize the error of their ways.
Seriously Trek doesn't do real Human cultures well and there is no excuse with the vast array of knowledge that is currently available.
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Are those really traits of being "Indian" or just a responsable human being?
I don't deny your beliefs or your opinion but aren't those qualities we all should have?
Yes we should as dewellers of this planet and human beings strive for these goals and hopefully one day we all will do more than just give lip service to it.
However it has always been a HUGE part of Native culture to be in tune with the land, respect life in all its forms and to basically "first cause no harm" - it was this way when the Europeans first stepped foot in this country and it is pretty much their belief today. A common thread amongst all Indian nations, one that is taught and honored from childhood, not because its the trendy cause of the week.
Now don't get me wrong they also had their fair share of nasty little habits such as tribal wars, slavery and just total horror when it came to defending their way of life but they were defending their way of life after all.
Again Chuckles embodied a lot of the traits I admire in Native culture but sadly they were only taking out, dusted off and given the insert Native reference here treatment without much thought or follow through.
I tried to find the positive in the character and tried to rein in my desire to hunt down the Clown College and slap the stink off them with my copy of Crazy Horse: Strange Man of the Oglala.
I wouldn't say that "first cause no harm" was a way of life for all of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, though it does seem to have been the case (as in many cases it still is) for many tribes, particularly those in what is now the U.S. and Canada. But then there are peoples such as the Aztecs, for example. They didn't deserve what happened to them, of course, but their capital of Tenochtitlan wasn't exactly a..."green" city. It was in fact one of the largest cities in the world at the time it was conquered - it supposedly had something like 200,000 people. It was huge. The Spaniards were thunderstruck by it.
And that really demonstrates the enormous problem with generalizations - and why it would have been nice to give Chakotay a real background instead of that Generic Native American stuff. There really isn't such a thing as a Generic Native American, and pretending that there is does a disservice to history and to the diversity that was in the Americas prior to the Spanish conquest.
Edit: Oops. Should have said "European conquest." I guess I had Aztecs on the brain.
And that really demonstrates the enormous problem with generalizations - and why it would have been nice to give Chakotay a real background instead of that Generic Native American stuff. There really isn't such a thing as a Generic Native American, and pretending that there is does a disservice to history and to the diversity that was in the Americas prior to the Spanish conquest.
Edit: Oops. Should have said "European conquest." I guess I had Aztecs on the brain.
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One would have assumed that TPTB set this guy up to be a "Space Inidan" (Khan was a Space Indian too. With the bindu not the feathers.) moved by the preservers first seen in the Kirk episode where he lost his memory and went native. Why create a backstory mythology to be instiabandoned?
It was the like second to last episode of TNG and formally introduced us to the maquis and nudged an inclination that big things were happening for Michelle Forbes in the demilitarized Zone playing silly buggers with the Maquis.
it looked like they had a plan.
The plan got fucked up.
Space Indians, Citizen Ro and Nick Locarno.
I just get a little fangasm thinking about such things.
It was the like second to last episode of TNG and formally introduced us to the maquis and nudged an inclination that big things were happening for Michelle Forbes in the demilitarized Zone playing silly buggers with the Maquis.
it looked like they had a plan.
The plan got fucked up.
Space Indians, Citizen Ro and Nick Locarno.
I just get a little fangasm thinking about such things.
BORU said:
Oh, so true. What is the deal with that? This is an area that you'd think they'd have some experience in - belonging to a human culture I mean.
The characters that did have a definite culture were usually stereotypes, and the others tended to be really bland. A few weeks ago, for example, some of us got into a discussion about why there were so few genuine and interesting accents in Trek. Characters from North America just have these bland generic American accents, whereas just about everybody from Europe (the only exception I can think of is O'Brien, though no doubt there are others) sounds like he went to Oxford. Where are the Manchester (England) accents, the Chicago accents, the Australian accents? Instead we've got blah-a-rama!