has chuckles become a generic slur against native Americans?

[KimMH]

A great deal is made of the Spirit Walking - I have just read the two-book series by the same name. Any ideas on that? Is that too broad a subject to be answered in jsut one question? A discussion our bookclub is discussing is the idea of being Jewish and how it can be a racial term, a cultural term and a religious term.

 

[JustKate]

They say that about Africans too and that's called a stereotype toward that race.

I'm talking archeologically, Exodus. (Edit: sorry - I had originally misidentified this quote as coming from Teya.) As far as I know, the archeological record supports that all the tribes of Mexico and Central America used spears - the Aztec and Maya did for sure. I don't know South American archeology that well, so I can't say about that, although I know the Incas did. I'd rather you not hint that I'm stereotyping when I'm not.

 

[JustKate]

(For that matter, why give Troi that odd accent that no other Betazoid had?)

Isn't that Marina Sirtis' own accent, though? (She's Greek)

Nope, she's British, or so I've read. Her parents are Greek, though - I understand she incorporated some elements of a Greek accent into her portrayal.

 

[Guy Gardener]

that was also the script where he tells Tuvok to cut it with the racial profiling, because his tribe had never used the bow and arrow to hunt, and then Tuvok tells him to stop assuming it's all about him when it's his bow.

As far as a Flashback scene on the bridge of the Excelsior went being all fine, I actually wouldn't have minded seeing Tuvok and some other Robin Hood wannabe in an arrow splitting competition at the academy.

I watched 16 episodes of In plain Sight last night.

Not unmissably amazing, I want to call it "Lifelite" but that sounds like another word for death or suicide or even halflife which brings in another mode of thinking entirely, but quite a solid show over all.

In the 10th episode or so, Mary McCormack's character again called someone else "chuckles" who was a white guy. So, it just seems to have been a coincidence after all and just part of her general lexicon to make her sound like a heavy from a black and white movie.

False alarm sorry.

But we seemed to have moved beyond that.

 

[teya]

Required reading for an American Indian Literature class I read was 500 Nations- I certainly agree the variety is widespanning. I confess my comfort with the vagueness is my own slant which finds comfort in finding that people usually have much more in common than not. In the same way while I like exploring strange new worlds and all, I have enjoyed the idea that Romulans and Klingons and Vulcans and Andorrians and Tellarites and Cardassians (and so many others) all value their families and have personal codes of honor/behavior that echo a larger cultural view and that most can put aside personal issues and even sacrifice themselves for a greater good.

Sure - that's all absolutely true. We all have a lot in common. But why make him "Native American" (and would a Mayan count as Native American?...maybe so, if you use a broad enough definition of "American") if they didn't want to use that in any meaningful way?

But of course it wasn't just Chakotay that they did this with - not by a long shot. Why make Worf's parents Russian, why make Riker Alaskan? (For that matter, why give Troi that odd accent that no other Betazoid had?) I have often wondered if the Trek PTB have some gigantic Wheel o' Origin somewhere that they spin whenever they are in a quandry over such things.

You weren't talking spears in the response I quoted, Kate, sorry.

All you questioned was if Mayans were Native American. You said maybe. I said definitely.

If a Native American opinion counts for anything on this...

Yes, absolutely, a Mayan is a Native American. All indigenous peoples of the western hemisphere are Native Americans.

And there are probably more Maya residing in the US today than in southern Mexico & Central America.

I also never "hinted" in any way that you were stereotyping and I'd appreciate not being accused of something I didn't do.

 

[JustKate]

^ Yes, I know - I messed up, too. I caught my error and corrected it, but I didn't do so quite soon enough. Sorry for the screw-up.

 

[teya]

^ Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

 

[exodus]

They say that about Africans too and that's called a stereotype toward that race.

I'd rather you not hint that I'm stereotyping when I'm not.

I think you're making things personal when no such thing was implied. What I did was an example by comparison, a Native American stereotype to an African one. I'm not sure what that has to do directly with you.

Can we stick to the subject of Chakotay and his culture?

 

[JustKate]

In the 10th episode or so, Mary McCormack's character again called someone else "chuckles" who was a white guy. So, it just seems to have been a coincidence after all and just part of her general lexicon to make her sound like a heavy from a black and white movie.

False alarm sorry.

But we seemed to have moved beyond that.

Didn't there used to be a character called Chuckles the Clown? It's sounds sorta familiar...

::googling::googling::

Yes - he was a seldom seen but often mentioned character on the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

 

[Lynx]

I think that Chakotay was a good attempt to have a Native American (or American Indian if you prefer that) as a main character.

But somewhere they lost it by making him something of a stereotype.

However Chakotay is far from the worst stereotype when it comes to Star Trek. A character like Chekov was worse and we did have some stereotypes in Scotty and Picard too. And wasn't Dr.Crusher's relatives in "Sub Rosa" a bit stereotypical too?

And, as written before, there are TV series which are far worse.

As for Chakotay, they should have done some research about the Maya people and given Chakotay a more realistic background.

 

[teya]

However Chakotay is far from the worst stereotype when it comes to Star Trek.

I don't know about that. None of the other characters you mention had something so personal as their religion trivialized.

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah, that's true. I really don't think they did so with any ill intent, but as I said earlier, no matter the intentions, the effect just wasn't good. And if they'd just picked a tribe or even a family of tribes (there's more than one Mayan tribe, I believe), they could have done a much better job simply because they could have been more consistent. Edit: Assuming they wanted to...

 

[exodus]

However Chakotay is far from the worst stereotype when it comes to Star Trek.

I don't know about that. None of the other characters you mention had something so personal as their religion trivialized.

True, "Tattoo" takes the cake.

However, "Up the Long Ladder" and "Code Of Honor" are incredibly racist episodes as well.

 

[teya]

However Chakotay is far from the worst stereotype when it comes to Star Trek.

I don't know about that. None of the other characters you mention had something so personal as their religion trivialized.

True, "Tattoo" takes the cake.

However, "Up the Long Ladder" and "Code Of Honor" are incredibly racist episodes as well.

Yeah, but Lynx doesn't mention those. He says that Chakotay's portrayal is less stereotypical--and less offensive--than Chekov's or Picard's.

I think it's way worse, but then, I what do I know?

 

[exodus]

I don't know about that. None of the other characters you mention had something so personal as their religion trivialized.

True, "Tattoo" takes the cake.

However, "Up the Long Ladder" and "Code Of Honor" are incredibly racist episodes as well.

Yeah, but Lynx doesn't mention those. He says that Chakotay's portrayal is less stereotypical--and less offensive--than Chekov's or Picard's.

I think it's way worse, but then, I what do I know?

I'm not sure I see Picard's stereotype.

He was French but acted very British.

I find Chakotay much worse, they showed his whole culture as a stereotype in several ways.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I don't know about that. None of the other characters you mention had something so personal as their religion trivialized.

True, "Tattoo" takes the cake.

However, "Up the Long Ladder" and "Code Of Honor" are incredibly racist episodes as well.

Yeah, but Lynx doesn't mention those. He says that Chakotay's portrayal is less stereotypical--and less offensive--than Chekov's or Picard's.

I think it's way worse, but then, I what do I know?

Well, they made a Frenchman drink Earl Grey tea, which is actually a blasphemy if I ever saw one!

 

[LLAP]

Generic slur is a bit harsh - I think naïve 90s PC idiocy is what I'd prefer to call it.

 

[JustKate]

^ There's definitely something in what you say. The nonsense I have heard people - nice, kind, well-intentioned people - say about Native American religion...well, it's both sad and funny at the same time. Actually about lots of other religions, too. People seem to think that if they read one article about whatever it might be, that's enough to make them well-informed about something that people have been practicing for thousands of years.

 

[exodus]

Generic slur is a bit harsh - I think naïve 90s PC idiocy is what I'd prefer to call it.

Only speaking for me.

I have no issue with being PC if means respecting anothers race or culture. I think I'd rather walk on egg shells to learn a new culture than say something offensive and make a bad first impression and be labeled a bigot or racist. It's harder to convince people you aren't if you're labeled one of those.

 

[Hermiod]

I've never thought about it this way. I've never considered the possibility that Chakotay being such a generally useless, poorly acted, uninteresting character who I would have killed off in "Caretaker" given the chance would reflect badly on native Americans.