Hard Time

[Oddish]

I'll make an additional counterargument... what if Miles had been subjected to more "traditional" methods of torture, such as the rack, or red hot pincers. What if when he was returned, his body was so badly broken that he couldn't walk, and his skin covered with hideous burns? Would you show similar restraint then?

The damage that was done to him might have not been as easy to see, but it was far more severe.

 

[XCV330]

I'll make an additional counterargument... what if Miles had been subjected to more "traditional" methods of torture, such as the rack, or red hot pincers. What if when he was returned, his body was so badly broken that he couldn't walk, and his skin covered with hideous burns? Would you show similar restraint then?

The damage that was done to him might have not been as easy to see, but it was far more severe.

Jesus, are you pitching a tent over bad stuff happening to Miles? You needed a job on the writers staff for ds9.
This is moving from a discussion into something that happened into an episode into how long Obrien needs to be on the taffy puller before we can get that war boner satisfaction.

however long you want, dude. bigly.

 

[Kor]

They summarily convicted and carried out a sentence on a visiting member of a foreign space navy who was there in good faith on a typical peaceful Starfleet mission of mutual aid and cooperation, without even bothering to notify his superiors until after the fact.

So Starfleet and the Federation had absolutely no chance to negotiate or intercede on Miles' behalf. At the very least, that's extremely poor diplomacy on the part of the Argrathi. So in the interests of protecting their own personnel, Starfleet should have restricted future dealings with the Argrathi, and withheld any further benevolent missions to their planet.

Kor

 

[Oddish]

They summarily convicted and carried out a sentence on a visiting member of a foreign space navy who was there in good faith on a typical Starfleet mission of mutual aid and cooperation, without even bothering to notify his superiors until after the fact.

So Starfleet and the Federation had absolutely no chance to negotiate or intercede on Miles' behalf. At the very least, that's extremely poor diplomacy on the part of the Argrathi. So Starfleet should have restricted future dealings with them, and withheld any further benevolent missions to their planet.

Kor

That might be satisfying in its own way. The Agrathi are invaded, or an asteroid hits the planet. They ask for Federation aid, and the Federation council says "remember what you pulled last time we had people on your planet?"

 

[XCV330]

 

[Crazyewok]

After the hell he has been through I thought he would appreciate 25 years alone in peace....even if he did have to eat scraps of food and shit on the floor

 

[Oddish]

As far as I'm concerned, Keiko earned her status as "awesome wife" in "Accession".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

that war boner satisfaction.

In what way is it "war boner satisfaction" to suggest that the Argrathi should (in any way) be held accountable for what happened to O'Brien?

I see no reason why they should just get away scot-free.

 

[Crazyewok]

In what way is it "war boner satisfaction" to suggest that the Argrathi should (in any way) be held accountable for what happened to O'Brien?

I see no reason why they should just get away scot-free.

Holding a nation to account doesnt mean you have to bomb the shit out of someone.

Trade sanctions from the federation would hurt. Diplomatic pressure from the federation for the
Argrathi allies concur ties would hurt to.

Look at the damage US sanctions caused on Cuba, Iran and north kora?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

At the very least, Starfleet should place a warning beacon in orbit, broadcasting a message along the lines of "Make the slightest wrong move on this planet and BINGO, instant 20-year prison sentence".

 

[Oddish]

I never said "bomb the @$%*# out of" anyone. Just drop a photon torpedo on the "prison" complex, with the yield set high enough to turn the building into a smoking crater, but not high enough for significant collateral damage.

 

[Crazyewok]

I never said "bomb the @$%*# out of" anyone. Just drop a photon torpedo on the "prison" complex, with the yield set high enough to turn the building into a smoking crater, but not high enough for significant collateral damage.

That's still bombing them

And there is ALWAYS risk of collateral damage as well as risk to the ships dropping the bombs. How many red shirt lives is reve.....sorry punitive expedition worth?

And the fact how many people should die in the complex? Not just the bosses and implanters but technicians, admin staff and cleaners? And how much blood is needed to satisfy the federation?

 

[Oddish]

I didn't say it wasn't bombing them. Just that it wasn't bombing the out of them.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If we are all weighing in, there is no legitimate reason to attack anything on the planet for O'Brien's punishment.

But if Benjamin Lafayette Sisko wants to bomb the sh!t out of something, let him. He's the emissary.

 

[fireproof78]

I didn't say it wasn't bombing them. Just that it wasn't bombing the out of them.

I think sanctions would be more appropriate than anything else.

 

[Oddish]

Oh, FINE, then.

*Oddish does an "angry Klingon face", like Worf always gets when Picard won't let him blow something up.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

*Oddish does an "angry Klingon face", like Worf always gets when Picard won't let him blow something up.

Man, I wish Worf and Shaxs could have met...

 

[Timo]

O'Brien was sentenced for the crime he did commit, however accidentally, and apparently quite according to local law and procedure. Starfleet is supposed to respect local law, up to a limit. Do we see it bombarding Vulcan holy ground for the Vulcan habit of arranging for duels to death for gullible outsiders?

The warning buoys and flagged travel brochures idea is the sound one. Feeling vengeful ought to be beneath Starfleet and the Federation, even if one of theirs gets maimed or killed.

This is basically "Justice" redone: Starfleet has been told what the local laws are, from the practical POV of what not to do; a violation committed essentially through carelessness is a violation nevertheless; and the fact that the local laws were so unremarkable and unexceptional resulted in Starfleet not checking on what sort of punishments were associated with them, and their exceptional severity takes them by surprise.

In "Justice" Picard is quite ready to violate local law. But he hopes his violation will be considered an appeal to the otherwise hard-to-reach Judge, and it indeed is. In "Hard Time", there's no time window for a violation, though, or for any other sort of appeal. But if the local law doesn't cater for those...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Oddish]

I'm happy that you have such warm and fuzzy feelings for O'Brien's torturers. Do not expect me to agree.

My head canon is that the Agrathi, emboldened by the Federation's apparent lack of retaliation, tried the same trick with a Klingon visitor. This proved to be a mistake. As I'm sure you know, Klingons like three things: revenge, bat'leths, and blood wine. The Argathi were not around for the wine.

 

[kkt]

O'Brien was sentenced for the crime he did commit, however accidentally, and apparently quite according to local law and procedure. Starfleet is supposed to respect local law, up to a limit. Do we see it bombarding Vulcan holy ground for the Vulcan habit of arranging for duels to death for gullible outsiders?

The warning buoys and flagged travel brochures idea is the sound one. Feeling vengeful ought to be beneath Starfleet and the Federation, even if one of theirs gets maimed or killed.

This is basically "Justice" redone: Starfleet has been told what the local laws are, from the practical POV of what not to do; a violation committed essentially through carelessness is a violation nevertheless; and the fact that the local laws were so unremarkable and unexceptional resulted in Starfleet not checking on what sort of punishments were associated with them, and their exceptional severity takes them by surprise.

In "Justice" Picard is quite ready to violate local law. But he hopes his violation will be considered an appeal to the otherwise hard-to-reach Judge, and it indeed is. In "Hard Time", there's no time window for a violation, though, or for any other sort of appeal. But if the local law doesn't cater for those...
Timo Saloniemi

If Starfleet had been told what the local laws were, why didn't that information trickle down to O'Brien so he could be much more careful or take his leave on Risa instead?