Hans Zimmer on "Man of Steel" Music - Ditch Theme

[Christopher]

I don't buy the claim that Williams's Superman theme is equivalent to Norman's Bond theme. Bond has only had one theme from the beginning. Williams's Superman theme was preceded by (and was a pastiche of) Sammy Timberg's theme to the '40s cartoons and Leon Klatzkin's theme to the '50s TV series, not to mention John Gart's themes to the '60s Superman and Superboy cartoons. And it's been followed by Ron Jones' theme to the 1988 animated series (which was combined with Williams's theme in the main titles), Kevin Kiner's Superboy theme from the same year, Shirley Walker's S:TAS theme, Robert J. Kral's theme to Superman/Doomsday, Louis Febre's heroic Clark Kent motif from Smallville, etc.

In my experience, the excessive copying of elements from the Donner Superman cheapened them for me. For years, I felt antipathy toward the Donner film because I was sick of the way everyone kept imitating its elements rather than using some imagination. Then, recently, I rewatched the films and discovered that those elements -- the theme, the design of Kryptonian tech and architecture, etc. -- work very well in their original context. But that's just it. You can't recapture the quality of the original by copying it. All you do is dilute and cheapen the elements you copy. If you want to imitate something from a good film, then imitate its willingness to be original! That's what made it a good film. Not the specific designs or melodies or characterizations that they used, but the fact that they were creative, that they put their best effort and imagination into it.

I don't want to see another hamfisted attempt to imitate what Richard Donner and Christopher Reeve and John Williams achieved. I want to see -- and hear -- an original take on Superman, because making it original is the best way to make it worthwhile.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I can barely listen to the entire Trek '09 OST in one sitting. How could the expanded score possibly improve the experience? If the extra material is that good, why isn't it on the OST? I seem to recall that most of the exceptional musical moments in the film made their way onto the OST. What does the expanded score have that the OST is missing?

The exceptional musical moments that you don't recall.

Such as? Which scenes? Which themes were used? How are the variations different from what's on the OST? Specifics would, you know, be appropriate. Since that's what I asked for. What exceptional musical moments are on the extended version that aren't on the OST?

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Zimmer isn't up to the task of reinventing the definitive Superman theme. I don't really want to see a Superman movie that doesn't use THE theme but if I had to pick a composer to do so I would want it to be somebody who is Williams equal. Shit why not Williams? If asked to create a new Superman theme he could surely do it and far better than anyone else on the planet.

 

[Canadave]

Zimmer isn't up to the task of reinventing the definitive Superman theme. I don't really want to see a Superman movie that doesn't use THE theme but if I had to pick a composer to do so I would want it to be somebody who is Williams equal. Shit why not Williams? If asked to create a new Superman theme he could surely do it and far better than anyone else on the planet.

I'd love to hear Michael Giacchino get a crack at it. He's fantastic at adapting his music to the style of whatever he's scoring, and I think he'd do a great job with Superman.

 

[Admiral_Young]

A film isn't validated or defined by the use of a piece of music people. A film's score enhances the film and can make it memorable but seriously...this is a little silly. The fact of the matter is that the John Williams theme was and will be identifiable to a series of films that this new film will separate it's self from (something that I wish "Superman Returns" had done but that is neither here nor there) and thus a new theme will be created to reflect that. Besides I think that if he is available (and there is no reason why he shouldn't be) it's probably inevitable that Tyler Bates will score the film. If they use the iconic Williams theme all the power to them. I don't see the big deal if they don't.

 

[Trent Roman]

I wasn't really referring to you, more to Zimmer's comparison. But I do have to disagree with you about the iconic status of Elfman's theme. Much as I like it, it has nowhere near the same recognition factor as the Superman theme.

I've found the opposite to be true, at least amongst my age group (pretty much all of whom, like myself, were born quite a few years after Donner's Superman came out). Few people recognize the Superman theme, and are as likely to misattribute it to copycats like "American Rabbit" than the original. On the other hand, just a few bars of Elfman's opening to Batman, and people instantly recognize the music and context.

But Elfman's Batman music is for Burton's Batman. It wouldn't suit Nolan's Batman. Nolan and Snyder need to define their own Superman, to break with decades of failure, and this character should have his own score. Maybe they can do a shout-out to it somehow, like the variations on the old cartoon Spider-Man theme getting referenced in the latest trilogy.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Greylock Crescent]

A film isn't validated or defined by the use of a piece of music people. A film's score enhances the film and can make it memorable but seriously...this is a little silly.

The truth is, some moviegoers (such as myself) are as into the score as others are into VFX or cinematography or dialogue or acting. Speaking personally, the choice of a composer matters quite a bit. Giacchino has yet to produce a score that is truly memorable for me (with the possible exception of The Incredibles). Horner is hit (Glory) or miss (Troy). Newton Howard intrigues me (loved the Blood Diamond score). Zimmer almost always entertains. Williams is iconic -- and often adds something to the story. Shore is masterful. Goldsmith is classic. Silvestri exemplifies the prototypical Hollywood score. And so forth. It's not silly ... it's simply one more element of film making to obsess over.

I'd miss the Supes theme, especially if the film references the Donner films in some way. But if the new film is explicitly trying to forge a new identity -- one completely different from previous Superman films -- then I can accept not having it there. I just would hope that what we get is something memorable or interesting.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I'm a little sick of the fetishization of the Donner movie, especially when the main core of younger movie-goers do not consider it the end-all-be-all definition of Superman that older superhero geeks do. Stuff like Smallville, JL cartoons, or direct to DVD movies are far far more likely to "define" Superman for this generation. So I say pass on it if we're doing a clean reboot.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Stuff like Smallville, JL cartoons, or direct to DVD movies are far far more likely to "define" Superman for this generation.

For the relatively small number of people who've seen them. The most people who've ever watched an episode of Smallville is in the range of six million, and that was years ago. Thinking that anyone who hasn't bothered to watch the show cares very much at all is a mistake.

Fans always miss the issues of scale, here - they assume that because they're familiar with something it's famous, or that because they like something most people will.

 

[JarodRussell]

I can barely listen to the entire Trek '09 OST in one sitting. How could the expanded score possibly improve the experience? If the extra material is that good, why isn't it on the OST? I seem to recall that most of the exceptional musical moments in the film made their way onto the OST. What does the expanded score have that the OST is missing?

The exceptional musical moments that you don't recall.

Such as? Which scenes? Which themes were used? How are the variations different from what's on the OST? Specifics would, you know, be appropriate. Since that's what I asked for. What exceptional musical moments are on the extended version that aren't on the OST?

You didn't specify what moments you mean, or what you mean by exceptional. So I am unable to tell you exactly what you might have missed.

 

[Skellington]

Hans Zimmer is a hack, especially compared to Williams.

Harsh. Practically everyone is a hack compared to Williams at his best.

I have mixed feelings about the use of the theme. I sometimes consider it to be just about the greatest three or four minutes of music in existence, but for that very reason it would take some serious cojones not to use it.

 

[Harvey]

I can barely listen to the entire Trek '09 OST in one sitting. How could the expanded score possibly improve the experience? If the extra material is that good, why isn't it on the OST? I seem to recall that most of the exceptional musical moments in the film made their way onto the OST. What does the expanded score have that the OST is missing?

The 2-disc set has better mixing that the 1-disc original soundtrack, and the added material more fully demonstrates that the score has more thematic depth than I initially gave it credit for (the 1-disc OST makes it easy to assume that the score isn't much more than the main title theme and some generic action cues).

It's certainly not Giacchino's best score, nor is it the best score of the Star Trek features, but it is much improved in the deluxe release.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

A film isn't validated or defined by the use of a piece of music people. A film's score enhances the film and can make it memorable but seriously...this is a little silly.

The truth is, some moviegoers (such as myself) are as into the score as others are into VFX or cinematography or dialogue or acting. Speaking personally, the choice of a composer matters quite a bit. Giacchino has yet to produce a score that is truly memorable for me (with the possible exception of The Incredibles). Horner is hit (Glory) or miss (Troy). Newton Howard intrigues me (loved the Blood Diamond score). Zimmer almost always entertains. Williams is iconic -- and often adds something to the story. Shore is masterful. Goldsmith is classic. Silvestri exemplifies the prototypical Hollywood score. And so forth. It's not silly ... it's simply one more element of film making to obsess over.

I'd miss the Supes theme, especially if the film references the Donner films in some way. But if the new film is explicitly trying to forge a new identity -- one completely different from previous Superman films -- then I can accept not having it there. I just would hope that what we get is something memorable or interesting.

*Giacchino produced the memorable, IMO, Star Trek score...

*James Horner is hit or miss, with more hits than misses. He is second to John Williams, IMO.

*James Newton Howard hasn't really impressed me with anything.

*Hans Zimmer is hit or miss.

*Jerry Goldsmith is classic, but also is hit or miss.

*Alan Silvestri hasn't impressed me with anything.

*Howard Shore is okay; I like his themes for LOTR...

Stuff like Smallville, JL cartoons, or direct to DVD movies are far far more likely to "define" Superman for this generation.

For the relatively small number of people who've seen them. The most people who've ever watched an episode of Smallville is in the range of six million, and that was years ago. Thinking that anyone who hasn't bothered to watch the show cares very much at all is a mistake.

Fans always miss the issues of scale, here - they assume that because they're familiar with something it's famous, or that because they like something most people will.

This.

 

[Cicero]

As much as I love the John Williams theme, I think they have to do something new if they want to give Superman a fresh start on the big screen. If this can be special and stand out, then it has to be a clean break.

That said, they have their work cut out for them given the ups and downs in the history of the Superman film franchise.

If an older Superman theme were retained, I'd prefer either the 40s or 50s theme. (The former link also includes a neat danger motif, usually associated with Lois.)

As much as I love John Williams's scores, I've never cared for his Superman theme, perhaps because I grew up with the 40s cartoons and the The Adventures of Superman radio and tv shows (thanks to my grandparents, When Radio Was, and Nick at Nite, respectively), rather than the Reeve movies, which I've never liked.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Such as? Which scenes? Which themes were used? How are the variations different from what's on the OST? Specifics would, you know, be appropriate. Since that's what I asked for. What exceptional musical moments are on the extended version that aren't on the OST?

You didn't specify what moments you mean, or what you mean by exceptional. So I am unable to tell you exactly what you might have missed.

Of course I specified what I meant. I asked, "What does the expanded score have that the OST is missing?" and I clarified it by asking: If there really is something extra in the expanded score that is worth listening to, I'd like to know which scenes from the film? What themes? How are the variations on the extended score different from what we hear on the OST? I can't be more specific than that. So I put it to you again: What does the expanded score have that the OST is missing?

If you cannot give me something specific, I'll stand by my assertion that Giacchino's score, while competent and possessing a few memorable moments, is far too sparse and uninteresting to be a "standout score" or worth investing in an expanded edition.

The 2-disc set has better mixing that the 1-disc original soundtrack, and the added material more fully demonstrates that the score has more thematic depth than I initially gave it credit for (the 1-disc OST makes it easy to assume that the score isn't much more than the main title theme and some generic action cues).

It's certainly not Giacchino's best score, nor is it the best score of the Star Trek features, but it is much improved in the deluxe release.

Can you provide some examples of how the score is improved? I ask the question because, honestly, I'd like to know. I don't think the score is terrible -- heck I liked it enough that I bought the OST. But the moments in the film which resonate with me are already on the OST -- which, in my opinion, is far too sparse and nondescript to warrant additional material. So if there really is something worthwhile on the 2-disc set, that isn't already available on the OST, I'd be happy to know what it is.

 

[Hyperspace05]

IMO they need to move on... There is no need to hang on to the old theme.

The old theme was great, but geez, some people worship John Williams themes in a religious manner.

But just as Superman has been recast, directors have changed, it is time to try something new for the score. There is no reason to be afraid of a new take on Superman. If it sucks, you'll always have the old films.

 

[Admiral_Young]

First of all the annoying and oft repeated film theme from "Star Trek" isn't used as much or at least trimmed down significantly in the Deluxe Edition. The outstanding music during the Vulcan drilling scene is used, which I don't believe was included in the original mass market release and is awesome, probably my favorite track on the entire CD. Other examples like this (and granted these are just a couple of minimal examples) are throughout the CD. You obviously have your own opinion on the score and that's awesome. I disagree with you. I enjoyed the score and am a fan of the composer. He'd be an interesting choice to score the "Superman" movie but don't think he will. Again if Snyder can get him, he'll get Tyler Bates.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

First of all the annoying and oft repeated film theme from "Star Trek" isn't used as much or at least trimmed down significantly in the Deluxe Edition. The outstanding music during the Vulcan drilling scene is used, which I don't believe was included in the original mass market release and is awesome, probably my favorite track on the entire CD. Other examples like this (and granted these are just a couple of minimal examples) are throughout the CD. You obviously have your own opinion on the score and that's awesome. I disagree with you. I enjoyed the score and am a fan of the composer.

Thanks for the examples. Next time I watch the film, I'll pay particular attention to those scenes. If anyone has any other scenes to offer, I'd appreciate it.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Star Trek (2009) is a bad example because it was a sort of re-visiting of the Original Series. The Nolan produced, Snyder-directed Superman reboot is going to be an entirely new interpretation of the Superman character, so I think they are going to want to go with a new theme to distinguish themselves from previous incarnations.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ This was exactly what I stated a few pages ago...glad I'm not the only person who thinks this.