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H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this film

Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

Brutal Strudel said:
Ooof, madonn', he looks terrible.

He does. I saw him in person a little over a year ago (met him at the 2006 Worldcon), and I don't remember him looking nearly so rough.

It's a classic Harlan interview, I have to say... though his rant about finding out by reading some random fan's post about the Guardian being in the movie doesn't ring quite true. Didn't he originally hear about it from Peter David?

I don't know why he didn't just pick up the phone and call Paramount himself, or have his agent call Abrams' agent. Would have saved his blood pressure.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

So, basically, he hasn't talked to anybody actually connected with this film, and he's proclaiming that they can't use anything from COTEOF because he said so.

This sounds an awful lot like Nimoy and Shatner saying at the early stages of this film that they couldn't use Kirk or Spock without THEIR say so, yet Shatner has never been contacted and Quinto was signed as Spock seemingly before they ever even talked to Nimoy.

In the case of Nimoy and Quinto, it's probably a moot point since he seems to like the choice of Quinto anyway. But, while he may be correct about it not being in the film, I find it very difficult to believe that Paramount needs his permission to use anything that is part of Trek's archives.

At any rate, three of the previous films had time travel and none of them needed the Guardian. Every version of Trek has had time travel and only one episode used it. So, while it may have been a nice nod to fans of the original show, it's not as if they need it to accomplish the task at hand.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

Let's really make Ellison mad: Start a rumor that the subtitle of the Trek movie is "The Guardians of Forever!" Hehehehehehe! -- RR
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

TJinPgh said:
So, basically, he hasn't talked to anybody actually connected with this film, and he's proclaiming that they can't use anything from COTEOF because he said so.

This sounds an awful lot like Nimoy and Shatner saying at the early stages of this film that they couldn't use Kirk or Spock without THEIR say so, yet Shatner has never been contacted and Quinto was signed as Spock seemingly before they ever even talked to Nimoy.

In the case of Nimoy and Quinto, it's probably a moot point since he seems to like the choice of Quinto anyway. But, while he may be correct about it not being in the film, I find it very difficult to believe that Paramount needs his permission to use anything that is part of Trek's archives.

At any rate, three of the previous films had time travel and none of them needed the Guardian. Every version of Trek has had time travel and only one episode used it. So, while it may have been a nice nod to fans of the original show, it's not as if they need it to accomplish the task at hand.

Wrong. Ellison OWNS the characters he created for COTEOF. Shatner and Nimoy do not own Kirk and Spock, nor do they need to give permission to use these characters. Abrams met with Shatner and Nimoy many times to discuss their take on the characters and this was a good six months or so before signing Quinto as a young Spock.

Ellison found about the Guardian rumour the same way we did and he responded in kind. I knew it was an unsubstantiated rumour, because I know that Paramount's legal department would have contacted Ellison ahead of time. That's what those lawyers are there for. They were there when it was decided that VOY couldn't use the character of Nick Locarno without paying up and the same for T'Pau as the main character for ENT.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

davejames said:
I can't imagine he sat down and sketched out the design for the thing

He didn't. The original script concerned the "Guardians of Forever", and there was to be a row of huge sentient, gray/silver statue entities in white robes. Motionless, nine feet tall, mitered, high hair and long beards. They have a Time Vortex nearby, and Ellison's stage instruction in the script actually states, "construct it as you choose". The Guardians do the talking, not the Vortex.
 
steveman said:
Ah, pure gold. "Famous as I am..." was my favorite part. I respect the work he's done, but he's always been like one of the girls in high school who thought they were a 10 when they were really closer to a 6 1/2.

:lol:

That is true....
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

6th day of XMe$$ said:
TJinPgh said:
So, basically, he hasn't talked to anybody actually connected with this film, and he's proclaiming that they can't use anything from COTEOF because he said so.

This sounds an awful lot like Nimoy and Shatner saying at the early stages of this film that they couldn't use Kirk or Spock without THEIR say so, yet Shatner has never been contacted and Quinto was signed as Spock seemingly before they ever even talked to Nimoy.

In the case of Nimoy and Quinto, it's probably a moot point since he seems to like the choice of Quinto anyway. But, while he may be correct about it not being in the film, I find it very difficult to believe that Paramount needs his permission to use anything that is part of Trek's archives.

At any rate, three of the previous films had time travel and none of them needed the Guardian. Every version of Trek has had time travel and only one episode used it. So, while it may have been a nice nod to fans of the original show, it's not as if they need it to accomplish the task at hand.

Wrong. Ellison OWNS the characters he created for COTEOF. Shatner and Nimoy do not own Kirk and Spock, nor do they need to give permission to use these characters. Abrams met with Shatner and Nimoy many times to discuss their take on the characters and this was a good six months or so before signing Quinto as a young Spock.

I wholeheartedly agree with most of your posts on this subject, but there is a caveat; Nimoy does has some kind of wide-ranging approval over his likeness being used (I think this dates back to his TMP and catch up on royalties for TOS deal.) He actually used the veto to keep the first version of the GR/Sackett coffeetable anniversary book from being published (they got another trek writer to do a variation that he signed off on a couple years later.) Pocket apparently had to eat all costs, which were significant, since the sucker had already gone to press. I don't know for sure, but I bet Steve Roby's page on trek print issues has something on this.

So Nimoy wouldn't have had sayso over somebody else playing Spock, but anything involving his likeness (like using stock of him or forestgumping his lips), he would have to sign off on, above any other deal SAG has for all performers.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

Wow, Harlan's off his meds again! :lol:

While I have a lot of respect for him as a writer, his juvenile antics and nonstop whining about Star Trek got tiresome, oh, about 20 years ago. You never seen that type of behavior form other admired TOS writers - Dorothy Fontana, for example. Even David Gerrold, who has griped quite a bit about his treatment on TNG's initial season, never comes close to the Ellison level of hysterical shrieking.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

As I understand it and as mentioned in Nimoy's I Am Spock, the dispute around the time of PhaseII/TMP was about Minoy's face appearing on lunchboxes, toys and billboards without his knowledge or approval. I am sure a deal was struck with Paramount as a condition to Nimoy's appearance in TMP and beyond, but the details of how much or a percentage is something that we, as outsiders, aren't privvy to. Since Trek is a Paramount property, they can legally do whatever they want with it. Asking Nimoy and Shatner's "advice" on the matter is a courtesy as well as a good PR move. I have no doubt that they would see a little something for themselves even if they weren't consulted at length.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

This sounds an awful lot like Nimoy and Shatner saying at the early stages of this film that they couldn't use Kirk or Spock without THEIR say so, yet Shatner has never been contacted and Quinto was signed as Spock seemingly before they ever even talked to Nimoy.

Just a note: Nimoy was the first confirmed actor as I recall it. And if you want to be nitpicky they were mutually announced.

As others have stated: Shatner & Nimoy do not own Kirk and Spock - but they do own their (of themselves - not the characters) likeness - hense why comic characters aren't always drawn exactly like the actors who play the roles.

Sharr
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

6th day of XMe$$ said:
As I understand it and as mentioned in Nimoy's I Am Spock, the dispute around the time of PhaseII/TMP was about Minoy's face appearing on lunchboxes, toys and billboards without his knowledge or approval. I am sure a deal was struck with Paramount as a condition to Nimoy's appearance in TMP and beyond, but the details of how much or a percentage is something that we, as outsiders, aren't privvy to. Since Trek is a Paramount property, they can legally do whatever they want with it. Asking Nimoy and Shatner's "advice" on the matter is a courtesy as well as a good PR move. I have no doubt that they would see a little something for themselves even if they weren't consulted at length.

I checked Roby's site and found the following partway down the page at :

http://www.well.com/~sjroby/lostbooks.html


(Image provided by Curt McAloney. Click on the image to see the back cover.)

In 1991, Pocket Books promoted an anniversary book by Gene Roddenberry and his longtime assistant, Susan Sackett, called Star Trek: The First 25 Years. It was to have been a heavily-illustrated hardcover book. In addition to listing the book in their schedule, Pocket advertised it in some of its other 1991 books. However, the book was never published, and no definite reason was ever given. Rumor had it that Leonard Nimoy had some kind of problem with some photographs in the book, but that was never confirmed. Until 2002, anyway.

Susan Sackett's book, Inside Trek: My Secret Life With Star Trek Creator Gene Roddenberry, has some information on the anniversary book. She had originally intended it for the 20th anniversary, but Pocket couldn't reach a deal with Paramount. Eventually, however, everything was cleared up for a 25th anniversary book, written by Sackett with a few quotes from Roddenberry. According to Sackett, the rumor that Leonard Nimoy was responsible for the book's cancellation is true. First he was late in signing off on photos of him in the book, and then he wanted editorial changes made to the text of the book. After a closed-doors meeting with Roddenberry, his lawyer Leonard Maizlish, Leonard Nimoy, and his attorney (but not Sackett), Maizlish told Sackett "that the book was on hold because Leonard Nimoy didn't think the prose 'lofty enough,' as Maizlish put it, and wanted it more in the style of someone like Bill Moyers." [p.189] Adding insult to injury was the later publication of the coffee table book Star Trek: Where No One Has Gone Before, with text credited to Trek novelist J.M. Dillard. According to Sackett, "an extensive amount of the copy was taken from my manuscript (which Paramount owned outright, since I was paid as a writer for hire). When I learned of the proposed book, I contacted Pocket Books, and they hastily cut me a small check and added my name on the front page in the first space under 'Additional Material by.'" [p.190] Inside Trek has a bit more information on this and other books by Sack

So it sounds like he has some kind of extraordinary clout, not just pertaining to his likeness, since according to this he could reject this thing on the basis of not liking the text.

I don't have the Sackett book, but TGT does, maybe he knows of some other relevant material.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

harlan's a great writer, but a total f*ck*n' jerk of a man.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

He was really, really nice to me when I met him.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

ClayinCA said:
He was really, really nice to me when I met him.

When I met him, he screamed at me for stealing his material and kicked me in the balls.












(He really didn't, but it's fun to say.)
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

I thought you were going to say he dropped a chandelier on you, that seems to be one of the prime Ellisonian legends, along with pushing somebody down an elevator shaft.

Man, I'd sure love to find the first of his CDs of speeches, the one that is way out of print. Hearing him talk about that stuff that I've only read of in tiny bits in the past would be a serious scream.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

RoJoHen said:
I just really don't want to see a ship flying through a "temporal vortex" again. I mean, it was fine for FC, but that kind of stuff makes time travel seem too easy and commonplace.
Actually, "Assignment: Earth" made time travel seem too easy and commonplace. :lol:
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

StarMan said:
Ahhh... So that's Harlan Ellison.

Entertaining guy. :thumbsup:


That he is. I had the pleasure of meeting him 19 years ago at the Superman Expo here in Cleveland, where he was one of the guests. Funny, witty and very pleasent in person. Harlan's been one of my favorite writers for years, and it's great having a couple of my books signed by him.

The video clip was great, I laughed my ass off. Personally, I'm a bit disappointed that the Guardian isn't going to be used, because the long-time fanboy in me was looking forward to seeing the damn thing done in modern FX on the big screen.

That said, I'm hoping that J.J. has come up with something equally brilliant to use as the catalyst for the story's alledged time-travel.
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

trevanian said:I checked Roby's site and found the following partway down the page at :

http://www.well.com/~sjroby/lostbooks.html
Very interesting site, that one... never saw it before.

I also just discovered that I have a "first edition" version of "Killing Time." Now, I was quite young when I read it, so this evidently didn't register... but this particular novel (according to this site) was originally published with a lot of "slash-fiction" content, just barely masked. Enough so that, according to this site, it got recalled and rewritten.

So, evidently, I'm the proud owner of "slash fiction" Star Trek after all??? :wtf:

;)
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

CaptJimboJones said:
ClayinCA said:
He was really, really nice to me when I met him.

When I met him, he screamed at me for stealing his material and kicked me in the balls.












(He really didn't, but it's fun to say.)

You think that's bad? When he phoned me, I had to change my underwear.

(Okay, that's not true either. The underwear bit, that is.)
 
Re: H. Ellison says 'Guardian of Forever' is NOT in this fil

trevanian said:
since according to this he could reject this thing on the basis of not liking the text.

Susan Sackett explained it to us (in Sydney) this way, a few months after the debacle: Nimoy had sided with others at Paramount that Roddenberry was becoming "revisionist" in his old age, especially re the evolution of TNG. By refusing to sign-off on any Spock photos, Nimoy essentially prevented the book from being published. Only he and Shatner, of the TOS cast, have likeness approvals and for Paramount to release a ST coffee table book with absolutely no photos of Spock would have been ridiculous.

We were disappointed since Ernie Over had given Susan a photo of the Sydney ST club members for the book. Sigh.
 
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