Gowron turning greedy in DS9 (compared with TNG)

[indolover]

I think personally that Klingons have the same basic motivations/personalities as humans, such as self-interest, greed, fear, etc. so it's no surprise that Gowron turned greedy in DS9.

It's probably also true that like humans, there are good and bad Klingons. Worf and Martok are examples of the good ones, whilst Duras is a bad one.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Even back in his TNG IIRC, Gowron was presented as a politician and opportunist. Initially, Worf wasn't even sure which of them attacked Alexander's mother (can't remember her name), was he? With her dying breath she told him that Duras was the one. Worf becamse Gowron's ally mainly because he was following the old adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." That's why the Gowron-Worf "friendship" felt apart so easily when Worf refused to go to Cardassia with him, I think.

 

[Alrik]

Gowron was shown the be an unethical opportunist from the get go. He tried to bribe K'Ehleyr to sway Picard before Duras killed her. Worf never really show any real respect for Gowron. In Rightful Heir Worf pretty much sat Gowron down and told him how things were going to be from now on in the Empire. Worf's backing of Gowron came simply out of his own loyalty to the Empire, not Gowron himself.

 

[Photon]

I think personally that Klingons have the same basic motivations/personalities as humans, such as self-interest, greed, fear, etc. so it's no surprise that Gowron turned greedy in DS9.

It's probably also true that like humans, there are good and bad Klingons. Worf and Martok are examples of the good ones, whilst Duras is a bad one.

But humans don't go on and on about honor and duty and try and prove it by drinking blood, being beaten w/pain sticks and having your scrotum seared by a red-hot bat-LETH.

Gowron like the fat emperor whom preceded him was the typical politician w/a lust for power over doing what was right. Kronos' version of Hope and Change

 

[Saxman1]

I always thought Gowron evil and self-serving and I don't see how the actor could have chewed the scenery any more than he did. I know he's a fan favorite, but I was thrilled when Worf killed him!

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Duras was a murderer and a traitor, Gowron was just a politician.

 

[Timo]

You mean Gowron didn't murder K'Mpec?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Photon]

You mean Gowron didn't murder K'Mpec?

Timo Saloniemi

I think Gowron contributed to K'Mpec's by taking him southern USA all-you-can-eat buffets and telling him to.." eattttt allll youuuu want tooooooooooo, weee cannn fixxxx those transfatttssss and hyperrrrrglycemiaaaaa (w/eyes wide open)"

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Duras was a murderer and a traitor, Gowron was just a politician.

I....fail to see the difference

 

[BolianAuthor]

DS9 did so much damage to the Klingons, it's not even funny. I didn't like how they made Gowron so power-drunk that he was doing stuff contrary to the greater good of the Empire, and making bad tactical choices, just to spite Worf... that was just simply stupid and silly.

Was he a weaselly politician, yes, because he was in politics, and wanted to be Emperor... but he DID have lots of honor in TNG. If he was truly dishonorable, he could have told Worf to frak off, after he and Kurn helped him defeat the Duras sisters, but he didn't... he kept true to his word to Worf, and restored the Mogh family honor.

And when he launched the invasion of Cardassia, he rightly felt that Worf had an obligation to him, which Worf really did, but Worf was really not in a position to honor that obligation, so Gowron rightly exacted his revenge for feeling betrayed by Worf.

But that doesn't mean that he was so blinded and stupid that he'd do dumb shit like divert entire battle groups to vulnerable areas, where they could be taken out, just because Worf said he should do otherwise... all that garbage about Martok needing to back up Worf's advice to Martok was absurd... that's like an Admiral in another country's navy having to back up the advice of one of our own Commanders to his Emperor... not only would it not happen, but it's a moot point, because what a non-flag Starfleet officer says would never make any difference, and because Worf's not a Klingon officer anymore... he's a Starfleet officer.

 

[Photon]

DS9 did so much damage to the Klingons, it's not even funny. I didn't like how they made Gowron so power-drunk that he was doing stuff contrary to the greater good of the Empire, and making bad tactical choices, just to spite Worf... that was just simply stupid and silly.

Was he a weaselly politician, yes, because he was in politics, and wanted to be Emperor... but he DID have lots of honor in TNG. If he was truly dishonorable, he could have told Worf to frak off, after he and Kurn helped him defeat the Duras sisters, but he didn't... he kept true to his word to Worf, and restored the Mogh family honor.

And when he launched the invasion of Cardassia, he rightly felt that Worf had an obligation to him, which Worf really did, but Worf was really not in a position to honor that obligation, so Gowron rightly exacted his revenge for feeling betrayed by Worf.

But that doesn't mean that he was so blinded and stupid that he'd do dumb shit like divert entire battle groups to vulnerable areas, where they could be taken out, just because Worf said he should do otherwise... all that garbage about Martok needing to back up Worf's advice to Martok was absurd... that's like an Admiral in another country's navy having to back up the advice of one of our own Commanders to his Emperor... not only would it not happen, but it's a moot point, because what a non-flag Starfleet officer says would never make any difference, and because Worf's not a Klingon officer anymore... he's a Starfleet officer.

Meh same thing happened to Bush. He was elected a politician but still an honorable man-wanting the good for America. But, now as we all know, Bush the president has caused:
oil prices to rise
global warming
global cooling
climate change
war in iraq
war in Afghan.
war in Zimbabwe
more concussions in the NFL
ring around the collar
more advanced cases of hemorrhoids
Dutch Elm disease
and increased cases of premature ejaculation

the list just goes on an on, its good this monster is no longer president and now there's a real decision maker in the white house! That's the kind of hope and change American and Kronos needs!

 

[BolianAuthor]

^

And so, it begins...

One thread about a character on DS9... check.

One serious reply by me... check.

One blatant off-topic political troll... check.

Chances of this thread improving from this point on diminishing... check.

 

[Photon]

^

And so, it begins...

One thread about a character on DS9... check.

One serious reply by me... check.

One blatant off-topic political troll... check.

Chances of this thread improving from this point on diminishing... check.

Of course, I'm quite sure you called out the left-leaners for disparaging Pres Bush-like you did me. But, its OK

 

[BolianAuthor]

Not at all, but we have a Misc. subforum for that... a DS9 subforum is not the place for politically-themes posts.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Gowron at breakfast:

"Glory to you....and your Waffle Hooooooouuuuuuusssssse!!!"

 

[Finn]

DS9 did so much damage to the Klingons, it's not even funny. I didn't like how they made Gowron so power-drunk that he was doing stuff contrary to the greater good of the Empire, and making bad tactical choices, just to spite Worf... that was just simply stupid and silly.

Was he a weaselly politician, yes, because he was in politics, and wanted to be Emperor... but he DID have lots of honor in TNG. If he was truly dishonorable, he could have told Worf to frak off, after he and Kurn helped him defeat the Duras sisters, but he didn't... he kept true to his word to Worf, and restored the Mogh family honor.

And when he launched the invasion of Cardassia, he rightly felt that Worf had an obligation to him, which Worf really did, but Worf was really not in a position to honor that obligation, so Gowron rightly exacted his revenge for feeling betrayed by Worf.

But that doesn't mean that he was so blinded and stupid that he'd do dumb shit like divert entire battle groups to vulnerable areas, where they could be taken out, just because Worf said he should do otherwise... all that garbage about Martok needing to back up Worf's advice to Martok was absurd... that's like an Admiral in another country's navy having to back up the advice of one of our own Commanders to his Emperor... not only would it not happen, but it's a moot point, because what a non-flag Starfleet officer says would never make any difference, and because Worf's not a Klingon officer anymore... he's a Starfleet officer.

I'm not so sure. Gorwon rewrote history so that in the Empire, he got the full credit for the whole Klingon Civil War/Sela thing.

 

[adamisme]

Gowron I think was slightly insecure even though he was the most powerful klingon in the empire, especially during the war, everyone loved Martok and he thought hang on people can love me if I go take personal charge, unfortunately he wasn't capable leader and well everyone could see it and led to his downfall

 

[BolianAuthor]

DS9 did so much damage to the Klingons, it's not even funny. I didn't like how they made Gowron so power-drunk that he was doing stuff contrary to the greater good of the Empire, and making bad tactical choices, just to spite Worf... that was just simply stupid and silly.

Was he a weaselly politician, yes, because he was in politics, and wanted to be Emperor... but he DID have lots of honor in TNG. If he was truly dishonorable, he could have told Worf to frak off, after he and Kurn helped him defeat the Duras sisters, but he didn't... he kept true to his word to Worf, and restored the Mogh family honor.

And when he launched the invasion of Cardassia, he rightly felt that Worf had an obligation to him, which Worf really did, but Worf was really not in a position to honor that obligation, so Gowron rightly exacted his revenge for feeling betrayed by Worf.

But that doesn't mean that he was so blinded and stupid that he'd do dumb shit like divert entire battle groups to vulnerable areas, where they could be taken out, just because Worf said he should do otherwise... all that garbage about Martok needing to back up Worf's advice to Martok was absurd... that's like an Admiral in another country's navy having to back up the advice of one of our own Commanders to his Emperor... not only would it not happen, but it's a moot point, because what a non-flag Starfleet officer says would never make any difference, and because Worf's not a Klingon officer anymore... he's a Starfleet officer.

I'm not so sure. Gorwon rewrote history so that in the Empire, he got the full credit for the whole Klingon Civil War/Sela thing.

Well, to be fair, that was likely due to revenge against the UFP for not backing the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, because if you will recall, after the UFP condemned the action, Gowron broke diplomatic ties, recalled Klingon citizens and Ambassadors from the UFP, and severed the Khitomer Accords... so, he likely felt that since the UFP "betrayed" the Empire, that they didn't deserve any place in their history books.

 

[The Overlord]

DS9 did so much damage to the Klingons, it's not even funny. I didn't like how they made Gowron so power-drunk that he was doing stuff contrary to the greater good of the Empire, and making bad tactical choices, just to spite Worf... that was just simply stupid and silly.

Was he a weaselly politician, yes, because he was in politics, and wanted to be Emperor... but he DID have lots of honor in TNG. If he was truly dishonorable, he could have told Worf to frak off, after he and Kurn helped him defeat the Duras sisters, but he didn't... he kept true to his word to Worf, and restored the Mogh family honor.

And when he launched the invasion of Cardassia, he rightly felt that Worf had an obligation to him, which Worf really did, but Worf was really not in a position to honor that obligation, so Gowron rightly exacted his revenge for feeling betrayed by Worf.

But that doesn't mean that he was so blinded and stupid that he'd do dumb shit like divert entire battle groups to vulnerable areas, where they could be taken out, just because Worf said he should do otherwise... all that garbage about Martok needing to back up Worf's advice to Martok was absurd... that's like an Admiral in another country's navy having to back up the advice of one of our own Commanders to his Emperor... not only would it not happen, but it's a moot point, because what a non-flag Starfleet officer says would never make any difference, and because Worf's not a Klingon officer anymore... he's a Starfleet officer.

I'm not so sure. Gorwon rewrote history so that in the Empire, he got the full credit for the whole Klingon Civil War/Sela thing.

Well, to be fair, that was likely due to revenge against the UFP for not backing the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, because if you will recall, after the UFP condemned the action, Gowron broke diplomatic ties, recalled Klingon citizens and Ambassadors from the UFP, and severed the Khitomer Accords... so, he likely felt that since the UFP "betrayed" the Empire, that they didn't deserve any place in their history books.

Gowron was rewriting history before the invasion of Cardassia, as far back as "Reunification". Gowron was always a jerk.

 

[indolover]

I think personally that Klingons have the same basic motivations/personalities as humans, such as self-interest, greed, fear, etc. so it's no surprise that Gowron turned greedy in DS9.

It's probably also true that like humans, there are good and bad Klingons. Worf and Martok are examples of the good ones, whilst Duras is a bad one.

But humans don't go on and on about honor and duty and try and prove it by drinking blood, being beaten w/pain sticks and having your scrotum seared by a red-hot bat-LETH.

Gowron like the fat emperor whom preceded him was the typical politician w/a lust for power over doing what was right. Kronos' version of Hope and Change

Klingons simply have variations, just as humans do. They talk about honour, but this doesn't mean they cannot be self-serving or do bad things. Worf stood out as honourable, but probably because due to living with humans he had a romanticised view of his people.

Gowron appeared reasonable in TNG, and to some extent in early DS9, but power must have got to his head in the end. Or in late DS9, his true colours surfaced.