Global Warming is a good thing...

[Johnny Rico]

...if you want to teraform Mars, that is.

Just saw a 2005 documentary show on the Science Channel that discussed teraforming Mars.

OK, first of all, what makes Mars the dead planet that it is? Two things. It's thin atmosphere, and therefore, two, extreme cold. The warmest it gets in direct sunlight is 32 degrees. So obviously, the way to change this is to enact Global Warming.

The plan is quite simple but ingenious. Go there, set up/build some "industrial plants" that produce ultra-greenhouse gas emissions. Basically start pouring massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere and in about 10 years, the atmosphere could warm to the point where it could support simple life-forms. Then as a the atmosphere stabalized on its own, you could start introducing plant-life that would then start to convert the CO2 to O2. Of course, as the temperature rose, the in-ground frozen water would then start to thaw and rise to the surface to create the running and flowing water that used to be on the surface.

It would finally get to a point where humans could walk around the surface without a pressure suit and just a oxygen supply and mask.

Eventually the atmosphere would become very similar to Earth's and it would suppport full forests and oceans.

Will all this happen in our life-times? No...they say that it'll probably happen by the 23rd Century.

However, we're using 20th Century thinking to solve a problem that probably won't happen for another 200 years. But they say that it will happen, especially if Earth's population continues to grow as it has.

Now as for the arguement that we humans have no right to alter other celestial bodies to suit our needs, I say, and they say, there is a universal sign that says, "Spread Life".

So what do you all think?

 

[scottydog]

Why not? My only concern is that humans have spent millions of years evolving here on Earth. Put us on another planet that we're not designed to be on, and things that we cannot even anticipate will probably kill us. On Mars, it could be the reduced sunrays, the reduced gravity, the red dusty air, who knows. I wouldn't want to be the first human guinea pigs there.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Is the gravity on Mars strong enough to have an atmosphere any denser than it already is?

Even if Mars was covered in tons of ultra-greenhouse gasses, they might just all evaporate into space and we'd be back at square one.

 

[Johnny Rico]

The Borg Queen said:
Is the gravity on Mars strong enough to have an atmosphere any denser than it already is?

Even if Mars was covered in tons of ultra-greenhouse gasses, they might just all evaporate into space and we'd be back at square one.

Well, I thought that too, but they claim that given enough time, the atmosphere would stabalize and stay warm(er) by itself. The trick is to provide "clean" greenhouse gases. In other words, straight CO2 and devoid of any pollutants.

As far as its lower gravity and its ability to hold onto a sizeable atmosphere, that is a good question. However, we'd only really need ten thousand feet or so of breathable air to sustain life at most altitudes. I mean, hell, anything over 22,000 feet here on Earth is deadly without oxygen masks.

 

[The Borg Queen]

But it's because there is still atmosphere at over 22,000 feet, that weighs down and compresses the lower atmosphere, to make it dense enough to breathe.

Planetary atmospheric pressure works from the top down, so the highest altitudes on Earth would be equivalent to the highest altitudes on Mars, no matter how far above the planet's surface they are.

22,000 feet on Earth may be the same as 10,000 feet on Mars, for instance. Which would make Mar's surface the same as 12,000 ft above sea level when on Earth. (I've no idea what the actual figure would be, that's just an example.)

Due to the difference in size between them both, the ratio between air pressure & altitude on Earth and Mars may not even be 1:1. Every mile above Mar's surface may be equivalent to one-and-a-half miles above Earth's surface, for instance, combined with the difference in air pressure starting at the planet's surface, anything outside or pressurised domes just may not be habitable for humans, no matter how much effort is put into planetary terraforming.

 

[Johnny Rico]

The Borg Queen said:
But it's because there is still atmosphere at over 22,000 feet, that weighs down and compresses the lower atmosphere, to make it dense enough to breathe.

Planetary atmospheric pressure works from the top down, so the highest altitudes on Earth would be equivalent to the highest altitudes on Mars, no matter how far above the planet's surface they are.

22,000 feet on Earth may be the same as 10,000 feet on Mars, for instance. Which would make Mar's surface the same as 12,000 ft above sea level when on Earth. (I've no idea what the actual figure would be, that's just an example.)

Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I get that you're examples are just a guess.

Anyway...all I wanna know is how deep is the oil?

 

[Bill Morris]

I have to wonder if humans would be happy living on Mars, even if the accommodations were luxurious, since the gravity is only one-third what we're used to. If 1/3 G is okay, then what's wrong with the moon, where the gravity is 1/6 G, with a more convenient location? If not, then that leaves the much cheaper option of a space station that rotates at a speed that creates 1 G.

 

[Brandonv]

Something that I don't see discussed often when the subject of terraforming Mars comes up, is whether or not the soil on Mars can support plant life (as we know it at least).

Do we know what nutrients and elements Martian soil contains? Certain elements, for example Phosphorus, are essential for life.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Well it's an element that is already present in the solar system (as proven by it being on Earth) so I would imagine there would be the same elements on Mars as on Earth, except for most carbon-based molecules which (as far as I know) are in Earth's chemical makeup as a direct result of biological processes.

 

[farmkid]

Brandonv said:
Something that I don't see discussed often when the subject of terraforming Mars comes up, is whether or not the soil on Mars can support plant life (as we know it at least).

Do we know what nutrients and elements Martian soil contains? Certain elements, for example Phosphorus, are essential for life.

We should probably be more concerned about carbon. Is there enough carbon on Mars to generate enough greenhouse gasses to warm the place up? Will there be enough carbon after that to support life? I really don't know how much carbon is there, but there better be a lot if we want life to thrive there.

 

[farmkid]

scottydog said:
Why not? My only concern is that humans have spent millions of years evolving here on Earth. Put us on another planet that we're not designed to be on, and things that we cannot even anticipate will probably kill us. On Mars, it could be the reduced sunrays, the reduced gravity, the red dusty air, who knows. I wouldn't want to be the first human guinea pigs there.

Actually, we can anticipate what may be the deal killer--cosmic radiation. Mars doesn't have the magnetic field that earth has. While many take it for granted, that magnetic field is essential to life on earth. It deflects much of the radiation coming from the sun and space in general to make life habitable. Without that protection, any living thing would struggle to survive in the long term.

 

[Cicero]

The Borg Queen said:
Is the gravity on Mars strong enough to have an atmosphere any denser than it already is?

Titan, the surface gravity of which is less than that of our Moon, has a surface atmospheric pressure of roughly 1.5 atm, near that of 5m under the sea on Earth. I don't think gravitation should pose an atmospheric problem, barring a materials issue.

 

[Spider]

You'll never be able to live on the surface of Mars no matter the temp or air pressure. Mars does not generate a magnetic field, so the planet's surface (and any life) is exposed to the sun's direct rays.

Earth's magnetic field and ozone layer help deflect that. Mars has neither.

 

[scottydog]

farmkid said:

scottydog said:
Why not? My only concern is that humans have spent millions of years evolving here on Earth. Put us on another planet that we're not designed to be on, and things that we cannot even anticipate will probably kill us. On Mars, it could be the reduced sunrays, the reduced gravity, the red dusty air, who knows. I wouldn't want to be the first human guinea pigs there.

Actually, we can anticipate what may be the deal killer--cosmic radiation. Mars doesn't have the magnetic field that earth has. While many take it for granted, that magnetic field is essential to life on earth. It deflects much of the radiation coming from the sun and space in general to make life habitable. Without that protection, any living thing would struggle to survive in the long term.

Spider said:
You'll never be able to live on the surface of Mars no matter the temp or air pressure. Mars does not generate a magnetic field, so the planet's surface (and any life) is exposed to the sun's direct rays.

Earth's magnetic field and ozone layer help deflect that. Mars has neither.

I had no idea magnetic fields were so essential for life. Are we to assume that humans cannot generate a field or its equivalent to sustain life?

Also, in Star Trek, all class-M planets seem to have no problem with sustaining human life. Yes, I know trek is fiction, but how unique is Earth (among habitable planets) in possessing the necessary magnetic field?

 

[Zachary Smith]

Errrr . . . the Martian atmosphere is ALREADY 95% CO2.

MARS

 

[Robert Maxwell]

scottydog said:

farmkid said:

scottydog said:
Why not? My only concern is that humans have spent millions of years evolving here on Earth. Put us on another planet that we're not designed to be on, and things that we cannot even anticipate will probably kill us. On Mars, it could be the reduced sunrays, the reduced gravity, the red dusty air, who knows. I wouldn't want to be the first human guinea pigs there.

Actually, we can anticipate what may be the deal killer--cosmic radiation. Mars doesn't have the magnetic field that earth has. While many take it for granted, that magnetic field is essential to life on earth. It deflects much of the radiation coming from the sun and space in general to make life habitable. Without that protection, any living thing would struggle to survive in the long term.

Spider said:
You'll never be able to live on the surface of Mars no matter the temp or air pressure. Mars does not generate a magnetic field, so the planet's surface (and any life) is exposed to the sun's direct rays.

Earth's magnetic field and ozone layer help deflect that. Mars has neither.

I had no idea magnetic fields were so essential for life. Are we to assume that humans cannot generate a field or its equivalent to sustain life?

The problem is that you need a low-intensity field that covers the entire planet. Radiation from the solar wind is diverted around Earth via its magnetic field. Mars gets pummeled by this same wind. Some of it is diverted around Mars, but its magnetic field is too weak to really do much good. Generating a suitable field around an entire planet is well beyond current science, as I understand it.

Also, in Star Trek, all class-M planets seem to have no problem with sustaining human life. Yes, I know trek is fiction, but how unique is Earth (among habitable planets) in possessing the necessary magnetic field?

Well, Earth is the only rocky planet in the solar system with a significant magnetic field. Mars has a better magnetic field that Venus and Mercury, but that's not saying much.

 

[Spider]

scottydog said:
I had no idea magnetic fields were so essential for life. Are we to assume that humans cannot generate a field or its equivalent to sustain life?

Our field comes from the liquid metalic core at the center of the Earth. It is assumed that Mars core is cooled off (and solid) since the planet does not generate a field. Our science is not yet to the point to generate a field large enough to protect Mars, or, to melt the core of Mars.

Likely habitits on Mars will be underground or heavily shielded. In any case, there will be no walking the surface in your shorts and t-shirts no matter how much we warm it up. Mars is bombarded daily by cosmic rays from the sun and life as we know it can not exist on it's surface. So, no trees or grass or anything that isn't shielded.

scottydog said:
Also, in Star Trek, all class-M planets seem to have no problem with sustaining human life. Yes, I know trek is fiction, but how unique is Earth (among habitable planets) in possessing the necessary magnetic field?

Who knows? Right now Earth contains the only example of life we're aware of. Life is probably common out there, but the conditions we evolved in, and need to survive in, are no where to be found except right here on Earth.

 

[Johnny Rico]

Spider said:

scottydog said:
I had no idea magnetic fields were so essential for life. Are we to assume that humans cannot generate a field or its equivalent to sustain life?

Our field comes from the liquid metalic core at the center of the Earth. It is assumed that Mars core is cooled off (and solid) since the planet does not generate a field. Our science is not yet to the point to generate a field large enough to protect Mars, or, to melt the core of Mars.

Likely habitits on Mars will be underground or heavily shielded. In any case, there will be no walking the surface in your shorts and t-shirts no matter how much we warm it up. Mars is bombarded daily by cosmic rays from the sun and life as we know it can not exist on it's surface. So, no trees or grass or anything that isn't shielded.

scottydog said:
Also, in Star Trek, all class-M planets seem to have no problem with sustaining human life. Yes, I know trek is fiction, but how unique is Earth (among habitable planets) in possessing the necessary magnetic field?

Who knows? Right now Earth contains the only example of life we're aware of. Life is probably common out there, but the conditions we evolved in, and need to survive in, are no where to be found except right here on Earth.

Well then how do you explain these guys?

 

[RainCrystal]

We don't know much about other planets on different solar systems so we can't assume life doesn't exist elsewhere. Its likely that there are other earth-like planets.

Going back to the main subject, it's been mentioned that terra-forming Mars might be more difficult because of the soil and atmosphere. However though you've got to consider Venus as another option. The atmosphere is more like Earth's own than Mars. The temperature and pressure is Earth-like too. It also has breathable air with oxygen and nitrogen. It's been theorised that water used to exist there. The only thing is that Venus has a weak magnetic field and the surface is extremely hot. It's been suggested that the hard clouds of Venus could sustain life organisms and if ever we were to terrform it then we would build cities on the Venus cloud tops.

 

[The Borg Queen]

RainCrystal said:
We don't know much about other planets on different solar systems so we can't assume life doesn't exist elsewhere. Its likely that there are other earth-like planets.

Going back to the main subject, it's been mentioned that terra-forming Mars might be more difficult because of the soil and atmosphere. However though you've got to consider Venus as another option. The atmosphere is more like Earth's own than Mars. The temperature and pressure is Earth-like too. It also has breathable air with oxygen and nitrogen. It's been theorised that water used to exist there. The only thing is that Venus has a weak magnetic field and the surface is extremely hot. It's been suggested that the hard clouds of Venus could sustain life organisms and if ever we were to terrform it then we would build cities on the Venus cloud tops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus