Giant Space Drill (rant, spoilerish)

[Hartzilla2007]

Sorry for the double post

Uh, huh? Why should I care whether you or anybody else goes to see the movie?

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me, since most of the 'defense' of this Movie is phrased in terms of 'you can't judge it until you see it' , 'you know you'll watch it anyway', and 'you're just a closed-minded bigot who hates change', and 'all the other Star Trek was stupid too'.

Not exactly fair defenses for a movie, which you yourself say, no one's actually seen.

And here it certainly applies that the "objections" voiced are quite premature, because there is too much we don't know. The drill may turn out to be fairly logical, or then far more disastrous than currently seems, in terms of the fictional universe.

And I've said, more than once, that the marketing for the movie at this point has, in my view, made me believe that this movie is complete and utter crap. That statement, alone, is what's personally offensive to a number of people here.

But I do want to point out that this exact level is not evident from the material released so far.

At this point, the marketing of the movie, and everything we know about it, has indeed been enough to warn me off seeing it in the theatres.

Yes but it would be nice if you stated your points as your opinion and not like they were facts.

 

[Franklin]

Well, as long as we're picking things apart --
There actually are three other parts of the drill scene that bother me a bit.

First, upon rereading descriptions of the scene, Kirk is apparently able to grind the drill to a halt by simply emptying a Romulan hand weapon into it.

Well in TOS a hand phaser on overload could blow up 5 decks, and in TNG a hand phaser at maximum and on wide bean could take out half of a building.

True. But if that works, I guess I'm wondering why they just couldn't have fired the Enterprise's phasers and torpedoes at the drill site. Instead they are "air-lifted" in with explosives. I guess there's a reason. Shields to get around or something.

Second, Nero sends the "red matter" down anyway. When Chekov tells Spock what's going to happen, Spock orders a planet-wide evacuation of Vulcan, puts Chekov in command, and leaves the ship to rescue his parents and the Vulcan Council. OK. Apparently Spock isn't too stable in this movie. But this is ridiculous behavior under pressure. Needs of the many, and all that? And again, the transporter isn't working? He just can't communicate with his parents to find out where they are and beam them up? Instead, at this crucial time, he leaves his command for Mommy and Daddy?

I don't know about the other stuff but with the transporter wasn't the GSD suppoused to be shielded which means Spock could easily bean anywhere on Vulcan that wasn't the Drill.

My problem here is in Spock's character. Again, I realize we don't know everything, but this seems so wrong on a lot of levels. He does order an evacuation of the planet, granted he can't oversee it all, but instead of staying in command, he gives it up (to an ensign) and leaves at this crucial moment to see to his parents. There could be a good reason for it. I hope there is. Is it supposed to convey the same sentiment as saving Chekov when everything else was at stake in TVH?

Well you have a point but lets not condem that movie on a few possible bad scenes

(and I know you aren't condeming the movie that was just for those who are.)

Thanks for noticing that I'm not. Regarding this movie, I think I'm just one of many here thinking too much about too little.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well, as long as we're picking things apart --
There actually are three other parts of the drill scene that bother me a bit.

First, upon rereading descriptions of the scene, Kirk is apparently able to grind the drill to a halt by simply emptying a Romulan hand weapon into it.

Well in TOS a hand phaser on overload could blow up 5 decks, and in TNG a hand phaser at maximum and on wide bean could take out half of a building.

True. But if that works, I guess I'm wondering why they just couldn't have fired the Enterprise's phasers and torpedoes at the drill site. Instead they are "air-lifted" in with explosives. I guess there's a reason. Shields to get around or something.

Well it is probably protected by 24th or 25th century shields which could explain why they ned to get up close

I don't know about the other stuff but with the transporter wasn't the GSD suppoused to be shielded which means Spock could easily bean anywhere on Vulcan that wasn't the Drill.

My problem here is in Spock's character. Again, I realize we don't know everything, but this seems so wrong on a lot of levels. He does order an evacuation of the planet, granted he can't oversee it all, but instead of staying in command, he gives it up (to an ensign) and leaves at this crucial moment to see to his parents. There could be a good reason for it. I hope there is. Is it supposed to convey the same sentiment as saving Chekov when everything else was at stake in TVH?

I have to agree with you there

Well you have a point but lets not condem that movie on a few possible bad scenes

(and I know you aren't condeming the movie that was just for those who are.)

Thanks for noticing that I'm not. Regarding this movie, I think I'm just one of many here thinking too much about too little.

Your welcome.

 

[Vance]

Yes but it would be nice if you stated your points as your opinion and not like they were facts.

Tell ya what, I'll do that the moment that that becomes S.O.P. for everyone else here too. Until then, assume everything that I say is based on my opinion.

 

[ancient]

Uh, huh? Why should I care whether you or anybody else goes to see the movie?

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me, since most of the 'defense' of this Movie is phrased in terms of 'you can't judge it until you see it'

Well, you really can't judge the movie as a whole until you've seen it, obviously. Questioning or debating the bits and pieces of info we do have is fine, as long as we don't get too hung up on the details and assumptions.

'you know you'll watch it anyway',

Some people have said this, but it's not a main arguement, or a defense.

and 'you're just a closed-minded bigot who hates change',

Wait, who called you a bigot?

and 'all the other Star Trek was stupid too'.

You are the one calling it stupid. Others are calling it 'the same as Trek has always been', which is pretty much true - and not an insult to Trek.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Only went through a few pages of this, so maybe it has been addressed already; but I figure that the singularity can only be created inside the center of planet and not created outside and dropped.

In that case Nero could have probably encapsulated the "red matter" in a hypervelocity penetrator (kinda sorta like a massively scaled-up GBU-28 munition) and launched it at Vulcan from a relatively safe stand-off distance.

TGT

 

[StarTrek1701]

Hey, the Borg can travel back in time 300 years...but they can't aim.

One relatively small hydrogen bomb would have put a certain end to Cochran. Evidently no one in the 24th century knows how to build a warhead that powerful.

Or that the Borg cannot time travel back to the past while still in the Delta Quadrant, quietly, and then take out Cochran. Or go even further back and assimilate humanity. And that the Earth was staying in the same place in space two hundred years before.

 

[Timo]

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me

No, I don't - I have no interest in the issue, and never had. I'm sorry but your beef isn't really with me, so I won't exactly be helpful here.

And I've said, more than once, that the marketing for the movie at this point has, in my view, made me believe that this movie is complete and utter crap. That statement, alone, is what's personally offensive to a number of people here.

Not to me, though. All I care in this thread is whether the drill makes sense or not. And saying that it's crap is premature. (At least by the standard Trek definition of crap.)

For my part, so far I like what I see, except for two things: the idea that our heroes would meet early on in their careers, and the new design of the hero ship. But I'm pretty certain I'll find further things to hate, and like, when I see the rest of the movie. If your current balance is towards not giving the movie a chance, that's perfectly fine. At least you won't have to encounter those further things to hate, which I guess counts as being on the winning side.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ancient]

Not really.

This plan by the villan Nero is at least as well-thought out as the Borg's poorly-designed scheme to stop humans from having their 'First Contact' with the vulcans.

Now THAT was a plan (and movie plot) full of logical holes...however, that film was still damn entertaining.

Hey, the Borg can travel back in time 300 years...but they can't aim.

One relatively small hydrogen bomb would have put a certain end to Cochran. Evidently no one in the 24th century knows how to build a warhead that powerful.

Allow me to be an anal fanboy for a second:

I think it's pretty clear that the Borg sphere was heavily damaged and almost completely out of power after their time trip. The Ent was just along for the ride and it came out with its shields and sensors gone. For the borg ship the same was probably true (thus the poor aim) plus the ship's power was probably down to something like 3% (thus the weak-ass weapon and easy destruction via only 4 torps.)

This has been a message from your local nerd council. Donate to keep the nerd council from being kicked out of their parents house. Thank you.

 

[Tyberius]

Hey, the Borg can travel back in time 300 years...but they can't aim.

One relatively small hydrogen bomb would have put a certain end to Cochran. Evidently no one in the 24th century knows how to build a warhead that powerful.

Or that the Borg cannot time travel back to the past while still in the Delta Quadrant, quietly, and then take out Cochran. Or go even further back and assimilate humanity. And that the Earth was staying in the same place in space two hundred years before.

I don't think that is their goal. They are after our technology (if you believe Q). They don't want to wipe us out as much as force us to advance our technology so that they can harvest it.

I would say that the Borg aimed very well - do some damage to the launch site and vehicle, but not enough that it is inoperable. Do just enough damage that required intervention from Starfleet, thus advancing the technology that the Borg wish to harvest.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Except that there's no evidence that the Borg had planned on having Starfleet follow them back into the past. The outline of their plan was made very clear - prevent humanity from developing warp drive so as to prevent our interference with their assimiliation of other worlds.

In order to "harvest" anything it's generally necessary to weed the garden along the way.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...Or -- as StarTrek1701 implied above -- why did the Borg wait until they got to Earth to go back in time? Maybe they should have found some nice quiet corner of the quadrant, go back to the 21st century, then fly to Earth relatively unnoticed.

In regards to the topic of this thread, that 'Borg Grand Plan' from First Contact is at least as full of logical holes as the the "Giant Space Drill" seems to be to some people (or at least the little we know about Nero's plan).

I'm not criticizing First Contact (much) -- I found it to be a very enjoyable film. What I'm criticizing is the idea that the Giant Space Drill is an illogical villianous plan, thus the film will be bad. Star Trek has had many illogical villianous plans that were part of very entertaining stories.