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George Takei accused of sexual assault.

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If you really listened, you heard him say he would grope people who were skittish or AFRAID to try to "persuade" them. Here is a newsflash: if some is afraid, they arent consenting. And if someone isnt consenting, it is assault, period. There just isnt any way around that, and we cant pretend something isnt assualt because it happened to a gay guy. If any man said he groped women who were afraid to try to persuade them, that would be an open and shut case. Its time to stop the double standard.
The thing with implied consent is that it depends on the what the person is thinking too. If he believed he had implied consent then to his knowledge he did not knowingly act without consent. He would no longer have implied consent once he was told to stop. He did stop when the person told him to stop.
 
RobertCardassian, you need to exit this thread pronto before I sit you out for a few days.

As for "safe spaces," there will never be one here on my watch. I do not believe in them. There are no "safe spaces," in life.

For the record:
1- I don't know if Takei is guilty or innocent. I may have my thoughts as to the matter, but no matter what we think about this, there is no proof one way or the other. That's bad for the victim if Takei did it, and bad for Takei if he did not. Keep that in mind. This is discussion/speculation only.

2-Before RobertCardassian squawks about my unfairness here, bear in mind I have abuse in my background. From my perspective, the discussion, for the most part, minus the "gay mafia" bit (REALLY guys?), is OK. We are monitoring it. If, however, you are triggered by reading it (and some may be), I suggest skipping over it. I do comprehend that while I don't get triggered by this kind of thing, others with different histories may.

Hard to believe though. I mean, really. It's hard to know what to believe with so much coming out these days.

The lesson these days is people need to keep their hands and their genitals to themselves, unless someone is WILLING (and truly willing, not coerced due to work or whatever).
 
Of course women are victimized more, but the numbers are closer than one would expect. There was an article on Slate awhile back that quoted surveys saying 38% of sexual assaults and rapes were men, and of that, 46% of those men reported that women were the assaulters.

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html
Wow Australia must be way different from the US where its 93% of the perpetrators of sexual assault here are male.
 
RobertCardassian, you need to exit this thread pronto before I sit you out for a few days.


2-Before RobertCardassian squawks about my unfairness here, bear in mind I have abuse in my background. From my perspective, the discussion, for the most part, minus the "gay mafia" bit (REALLY guys?), is OK. We are monitoring it. If, however, you are triggered by reading it (and some may be), I suggest skipping over it. I do comprehend that while I don't get triggered by this kind of thing, others with different histories may.


Then go ahead and ban me, sir. Do what you have to do.

THE VICTIMS WILL NOT BE SILENCED. NO MORE PEDOS NO MORE MOLESTORS NO MORE RAPISTS.

I have zero tolerance for defense of these awful people.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
 
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I mean the myths and misconceptions are prevalent among both genders.

It's obvious that males make up the majority of offenders, but sadly there are many women who enable them by engaging in victim blaming or by shielding offenders. I have seen far too many instances of mothers turning against their own children to protect their partner, or friends talking victims out of complaining because of a judgment of their own actions (not resisting, being drunk, etc).

Misogyny certainly plays a part in the prevalence of offending, but so does a lack of understanding of the nature of the offending - particularly when it comes to how a victim "should" react.

Oh, I misunderstood you then. Sorry about that.

Yes, that's true. Women can act in misogynistic ways too. Sometimes even unconsciously, like everyone can. Sexism is a structural problem after all. We couldn't have misogyny so deeply rooted inside our society if it didn't found a way of interacting with women themselves and convincing some of them that it's better to side with men instead of the people who are victimized.

That's one of the reasons why scumbags like Weinstein were shielded so much all these years, for example.

I also don't believe in a slippery slope but I also don't think the context of society has much value when judging each case because you got to take each accusation on it's own terms and kind of ignore what the bigger picture is when it comes to society. People are people and can't be treated like statistics.

Well, believing the public should listen to the accusers because of sociological and historical context is not the same thing as believing you should necessarily consider these contexts when you are going to judge someone. I agree with you, when you are judging very serious crimes like sexual assault you should put the bigger picture aside and be objective in relation to what you have in hand.

When it comes to social action, though, like the attitudes we have towards people who come forward in cases like this ? We should definitely look at the bigger picture. The biggest mistakes in modern history always come when people ignore the material conditions that surround them.

About all these scandals having zero effects on common people, yeah, I'm afraid about that too. Let's hope authorities understand that rape culture doesn't exist on Hollywood only and that it's everywhere. It's hard to be an optimist lately, but I believe these cases will help bring light to places where there was none before.
 
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^troll enabler
 
Why didn't the guy get in contact with George personally first rather than just going to the public?

Why on earth would he do that? We don't expect abuse survivors to go through their abusers first.

Sometimes people get bold and put moves on other people without asking

If those "moves" involve physical sexual contact, that's called sexual assault. Consent is having the freedom and capacity to choose. If I decide I'm going to grab your ass without asking because the mood has taken me, in what way do you have the freedom to choose? If the mood is so fragile asking (it doesn't have to involve forms) is going to ruin it, you probably weren't getting anywhere anyway.
 
Why on earth would he do that? We don't expect abuse survivors to go through their abusers first.



If those "moves" involve physical sexual contact, that's called sexual assault. Consent is having the freedom and capacity to choose. If I decide I'm going to grab your ass without asking because the mood has taken me, in what way do you have the freedom to choose? If the mood is so fragile asking (it doesn't have to involve forms) is going to ruin it, you probably weren't getting anywhere anyway.

I think marsh8472 might be thinking of things of like, When is okay to make the first move and maybe try and kiss someone. Seeing as how I have basically no dating experience I am kind of curious myself how to notice mood shifts and how to know when someone wants you to kiss them and when you don't. I mean do people literally say "Can I kiss you now?" The impression I have always gotten is that people usually go more on instinct than they do with literally saying what they want in words. Also how does being drunk get in the way of this instinct because doesn't that cloud people's ability to read singles?

Jason
 
I met Takei in the late 80s, before he came out. We chatted for a few minutes during an autograph session. It was pretty obvious to me and to my friend that Takei was lightly flirting with me, even though I'm hetero cisgender. He wasn't lewd or disrespectful, but some of his questions just felt too personal and beyond small talk. Given we were at the front of a long, long line of people, he also seemed to spend a lot of time just talking to me.

That said, Takei did not strike me as predatory. He seemed genuinely excited to be there representing Star Trek. But as a celebrity, he also seemed to understand that his fame gave him cachet. Whether that translated into a sense of power is open to debate, but many celebrities consider fame a door to other possibilities.

I have no idea if he sexually assaulted anyone. To begin with, 30 or 40 years ago, there may have been different concepts of just what sexual assault is. In those days, I got grabbed or "goosed" in clubs by women (and sometimes men). Asking for permission was often not expected or as clearly spelled out as it is today. A drunken woman once pulled me onto the dance floor and then kissed me full at the end, for example. I've been in relationships where I've either not been in the mood for a physical interaction or been asleep and had the woman "assist" me -- they didn't ask for permission first. Today, all of these things could be considered sexual assault. Forty years ago, people weren't necessarily sure, especially if it happened to a man. Men, especially straight men, were assumed to like and want such attention.

I'm not defending Takei or anyone who sexual harasses or assaults. At the same time, though, it's disingenuous to say that the standards for everything were the same back then. It's also a little scary that merely making an accusation results in so much swift and final action. The guilty should be punished, but an accusation is not necessarily the same thing as proof of guilt. Arthur Miller wrote a whole play about this idea. Even the TOS episode "Court Martial" deals with this. Some will call this expectation victim shaming, but if someone hasn't done anything wrong, isn't that "innocent shaming"?
 
I think marsh8472 might be thinking of things of like, When is okay to make the first move and maybe try and kiss someone. Seeing as how I have basically no dating experience I am kind of curious myself how to notice mood shifts and how to know when someone wants you to kiss them and when you don't. I mean do people literally say "Can I kiss you now?" The impression I have always gotten is that people usually go more on instinct than they do with literally saying what they want in words. Also how does being drunk get in the way of this instinct because doesn't that cloud people's ability to read singles?

Jason


It is an interesting topic, particularly once you bring in longer term relationships where there is often an element of presumed 'ongoing' consent to low level touching such as hugs, kissing, over clothes touching etc. This is complex and established over time through trust between couples so really doesn't apply in the sort of case we're talking about. It's also important to remember that even in a long term relationship, consent is always required.

With a stranger, a young relationship, a one night stand, etc. you're on much thinner ice. You have no real knowledge of them or their 'signals' or wishes or views. It is never going to be defensible to 'assume' with a stranger. The best bits of advice:
1. Communicate - ask, be specific, and continue to ask as you go. You don't have to make it sound like a market research survey, asking can be sexy. If you want to be 'bold' and 'seize the moment', be bold in asking.
2. Never assume that because they have consented to one thing, they are therefore consenting to something else. Kissing is not consent to touching genitals, for example.
3. Consider capacity - if someone is very intoxicated, has significant impairments, or there is a significant power imbalance between you as is often the case with these Weinstein type cases, capacity to consent is an issue. Could this person genuinely and freely say 'no' to you right now?
 
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It is an interesting topic, particularly once you bring in longer term relationships where there is often an element of presumed 'ongoing' consent to low level touching such as hugs, kissing, over clothes touching etc. This is complex and established over time through trust between couples so really doesn't apply in the sort of case we're talking about.

With a stranger, a young relationship, a one night stand, etc. you're on much thinner ice. You have no real knowledge of them or their 'signals' or wishes or views. It is never going to be defensible to 'assume' with a stranger. The best bits of advice:
1. Communicate - ask, be specific, and continue to ask as you go. You don't have to make it sound like a market research survey, asking can be sexy. If you want to be 'bold' and 'seize the moment', be bold in asking.
2. Never assume that because they have consented to one thing, they are therefore consenting to something else. Kissing is not consent to touching genitals, for example.
3. Consider capacity - if someone is very intoxicated, has significant impairments, or there is a significant power imbalance between you as is often the case with these Weinstein type cases, capacity to consent is an issue. Could this person genuinely and freely say 'no' to you right now?

When it comes to drinking, I wonder what happens though if both people are drunk. I still think of that scene in "Superbad" were I think McLoven is getting drunk, on the theory is that it's okay to have sex if both people are drunk and it's wrong if they are drunk and you are sober. As for me personally I have always wondered about this because I don't drink I mean that literally. Punch might have been spiked during my High School Prom but not sure about that and it is the closest I have ever gotten to drinking alcohol.

My abusive stepdad was a drunk and it, along with the fact that I am fat and I know if I have control issue's with food I would be that as well, so I have avoided it. I wonder how recovering alcoholitics' deal with this because they must date people who drink and I also wonder how people can tell how drunk a person is at times. I have seen people who are flat out-over the top drunk and it's clear but I always wonder about people who have drank to much but having reached the Otis from Mayberry level as of yet. Like dating it seems Drinking has some subtle stuff that is hard for some people to figure which is why I would love it if woman always made the first move IMO. Granted that might just be a reflection on me. I can sort of trace my own sexual feelings back to how I have been raised and my mom and frankly I think it's better if I just saw it all as being part of some big mystery.

Jason
 
When it comes to drinking, I wonder what happens though if both people are drunk.
If you are too drunk to consent as well, arguably the mens rea to commit a criminal act may not be present anyway. It would certainly be relevant to whether or not a mistaken belief of consent was reasonable. However, intoxication as a voluntary act will not negate all responsibility, as the choice to get drunk was yours. It is certainly despicable, to use the Superbad example, to use it to get away with what you know, when sober, is rape.
 
Why on earth would he do that? We don't expect abuse survivors to go through their abusers first.
From what I've read he did all this because he just wanted an apology or attention from Takei. Telling the whole planet first is an odd way to get an apology. That kind of apology is going to be forced and doesn't seem very genuine but if that's the kind of apology he was looking for then that would explain it.
 
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