Isn't that a little bit hars?
Spoilers George Lucas blamed for Episode VIII?!
- Thread starter Qonundrum
- Start date
Isn't that a little bit hars?
What's wrong with Rose? 
I quite liked her.
I quite liked her.
I thought I made that quite clear in the Finn section. I find Rose guilty of sabotage and sedition.
Ah what the hell, I can be magnanimous. I hereby commute her sentence from death to life in a coma.
Ah what the hell, I can be magnanimous. I hereby commute her sentence from death to life in a coma.
Or this was Kathleen Kennedy's way of telling 2015/17 audiences that the only main black male character in the sequel trilogy is in a stereotyped, subservient job....and he's a screaming, bumbling clown, too....
We're talking about the black version of the cloth uniforms, not the black EV suits. Like this guy.
From what I've read she "doesn't fit the universe" or some nonsense. Personally, I found her the most refreshing of the characters in the new film, and was quite stricken by her personal hurt at the death of her sister.What's wrong with Rose?
But, what do I know?
It might have changed, but, before, the black officer uniforms were stormtrooper officers.
Or that he’s too much of a fundamentally good person to be an effective mindless jackboot for a murderous totalitarian cult. Said intrinsic ‘not an arsehol-ishness’ also lead to him (apparently) becoming the first and only defector from said death cult, despite knowing that doing so would bring a literal army down on his head.
How...terrible. A depiction totally devoid of anything resembling admirable qualities. The shame.
(Seriously, people equating the Empire/FO with ‘badass’ is becoming less and less funny as the years go by. They’re incompetent blowhards who punch down at all times, and the uniforms aren’t that snazzy.)
And you know? I really don’t recall Finn screaming all that much. He yells, but so do most of the people he’s yelling too. Cos usually they’re in situations like...being chased by TIE fighters, which are raining gunfire and explosions down on top of them. The only real ‘screaming’ I can think of, was when he was inches from being eaten alive.
Han on the other hand. Now there’s a man who has quiet a bit of ‘whining’ and ‘screaming hysterically in terror and pain’ on his Memorable Moments list. And he’s supposably the cool one.
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Finn--the only black male lead in the film--was still made a screaming, stumbling clown with one in a long line of historically stereotyped positions. Call him a janitor, or say he works in sanitation, but this follows a long Hollywood tradition in its treatment of black males, long criticized by random viewers, to civil rights workers, actors, et al. Finn's clowning, subservient character was the key takeaway in films released in 2015/2017, where some would make the crumbing argument that this sort of racial stereotype is not to be found in the work of so "enlightened" a group of entertainment producers.
You’ve said the same thing twice. Still a lot of claims, with no supporting examples from the text. For eg. Quotes, scenes, etc.
Who is Finn presented subservient to again? Because his ‘fumbling’ (aka. Not being fantastic at the cold blooded execution of innocent civilians,) kinda seems to be the opposite of ‘subservience’ when the context is a literal oppressive space neo Nazi regime.
(You’d think he and Phasma outright saying that his shitty service record with the FO was his form of rebellion, would hammer it in for extra obviousness. But apparently not.)
Other than that, he’s by himself for most of TLJ (and only shares scene’s with Rose or Poe, who are also both POC), so you can’t really be talking about that. Maz puts him in his place a bit, but she is also POC (and is harder on Rey). Which leaves his depicted relationship with Rey, in which case I do wonder why you push so hard for them to hook up.
Speaking of, i note your resting a lot of your argument for racism on ‘the black man and white woman wont hook up.’ Admittedly, that is a rare pairing due to racist reasons. Be nice to see more. But do you know what pairing is even more rare?
A Black lead with an East Asian lead. Would you care to take some fucking guesses as to why?
Hint: Part of it has to do with the way white guys view East Asian women.
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"I told you to tell 'em that you was in a sanitarium! Not sanitation, sanitarium!"
What's wrong with Rose?
I thought the actress who played Rose was okay, but the character herself needed more depth in the script. YMMV.
They obviously only have one intensive care unit/bacta tank/suit for a single person to be in coma each time. Finn got out just in time for Leia to be in coma, Leia got out just in time for Rose to be in coma, and so on. I wonder who’s gonna take Rose’s place in the coma ICU in Episode IX?
What more do you need other the fact he's a black male made to be a clown, works in sanitation and spends most of his screen time being an idiot. To anyone knowing the history of reducing black males to subservient clown roles in film (essentially, he's a 21st century Mantan Moreland), the message is loud and clear.
Apparently, some cannot understand that Finn being a clown in sanitation was offensive, part of a long history of deliberate Hollywood racial misrepresentation, which snuffs out any of The Force Awakens rather cartoonish presentation of villains. Adding to that, other points about Finn were covered by IndieWire's Andre Seewood in 2015:
There are no errors in Seewood's assessment.
For those in the entertainment business--and pretty much anywhere else--with race issues with black males, the first line of resentment/action begins (and almost always ends) with the black male's relationship to white females. Historically, its been the interest and motivator of the most widespread, toxic, deadly actions against it in (for one national example) the U.S. Despite Hollywood forever selling itself as the most progressive place on earth (as seen at this evening's latest awards show), the black male/white female, and basic treatment of black male image stands as a Colossus of Rhodes-sized act of immorality, if not evil, when one considers what racism truly means.
Yet there's been less resistance to black males and East Asian females than one might think, especially over recent (21st century) history.
For a few examples, whether in higher-profile productions (Mekhi Phifer and Ming-Na Wen in ER, Sandra Oh and Isaiah Washington in Grey's Anatomy, a relationship between Corey Hawkins and Jing Tian's characters suggesting a growing union in Kong: Skull Island), or indies such as Face (Kristy Wu and Anthony Criss), there's no larger outcry as seen when the pairing is black male/white female. This goes some way in explaining why those most vocal Star Wars fans who were almost begging for Rey to end up with anyone other than Finn (including psychotic Kylo Ren) are not saying much now that it appears Finn is going to be in a relationship with Rose.
Not to me...I must be racist
You're the one assigning the pejorative "clown" description to his character. In film, he's explicitly called a hero and makes personal sacrifices in the name of friends and his morality.
Methinks you ought to reconsider your own perspective on the character.
You just did it again.
How. Is. Finn. Clownish?
If Seewood saw TLJ in 2015, then he’s very impressive indeed.
Lucky thing for you too. Otherwise, you might have to actually argue and support your own claims about TLJ like a big boy.
If you say it, then it must be so. Yeeep.
Actually, Seewood himself does make a good argument about Finn’s place in TFA, and especially the way he was used in the marketing. I’m genuinely curious as to his thoughts on TLJ, because some of the issues he brings up were... (wait for it)...addressed.
He doesn’t however, make the arguments that you’re attributing to him. A big difference being that he doesn’t actually review the movie. He’s doesn’t give a shit about declaring ‘this movie is good/bad’. He’s examining something specific thing both within and without it. It’s an essay.
There’s also a reason why he can support his points with examples from the text (and an additional bibliography), and you apparently can’t.
Oh, I can do that too. In fact, I can do it better.
“There is less resistance to mixed race black/white couples than one might think. For a few examples, in only high profile productions that I’ve personally seen from the last 12 months, we’ve had:
-Spock/Uhura in Star Trek
-Sam/Gabe in Dear White People
- the Lovings in Loving (duh)
-Andre/Rhonda in Empire.
-The Rock/Jason Statham in Fate Of The Furious
-Jessica Jones/Luke Cage
-Kate Winslet/Idris Elba in The Mountain Between Us.
-Iris/Barry in The Flash
-Zac Efron/Zendaya In The Greatest Showman
-Sam/Gabe in Dear White People
- the Lovings in Loving (duh)
-Andre/Rhonda in Empire.
-The Rock/Jason Statham in Fate Of The Furious
-Jessica Jones/Luke Cage
-Kate Winslet/Idris Elba in The Mountain Between Us.
-Iris/Barry in The Flash
-Zac Efron/Zendaya In The Greatest Showman
And there’s no larger outcry.
Guess I just established it’s no longer a ‘real’ issue! Now excuse me for a moment, whilst I vomit a bit in my mouth.
Ah. When lacking actual examples, just say there’s nameless internet shippers.
No matter what you’re claiming, you can’t be wrong.
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This is why your entire responses are so off the mark, and--apparently--determined to defend both sequel trilogy producers decisions and the films sans any understanding of the way black males have been misused in film history. In race propaganda in film, black makes were/ are clowns when they--unlike any other character (in what is not a comedy) is not to be taken seriously, where he's not comedy relief, yet he stumbles about, usually setting himself up to be something, but trips his way into an often disregarded, disrespected position (except his one TFA deed--thanks to being in the stereotyped role as a sanitation worker), regularly misspeaks, and the chief character to have others show him up for being a fool. Again and again, Finn is the black clown, not--in what used to be Star Wars character tradition--to be one of the heroic trinity to truly break all bonds of any old self to be a hero--which for TPM Obi-Wan/Anakin/Padme, or ANH Luke/Han/Leia--happened several times over the course of their respective debut film.
This does not happen to Finn, as his one "moment" is a lightsaber fight where he's so easily outclassed, and ripped into unconsciousness, that it was clear he was there just to be the anger motivator for Rey to fight Ren, but he leaves TFA not truly joining the ranks of a growing hero as seen with the hero trinity of the previous trilogies' debut stories. In TLJ, Finn remains a black clown, as he's shocked into submission by Rose--who subsequently leads him by the nose throughout the entire casino disaster, removing any chance for the Finn character to grow into any sort of character of true self-respect self-determination (like Luke in ESB, or Anakin and/or Padme in AOTC). Even his suicide run is--once again--taken away by Rose, as he cannot even attempt to die a hero.
He's not the decision maker. He's not the true creator--or leader of missions, and as a bone tossed his way (I doubt anyone will get the emphasis on that), he has a pointless fight with Phasma which...no one was looking forward to, since the latter was completely undeveloped in TFA, and Finn as a sci-fi fighting hero does not exist. There's no build-up in a fight between an action figure design who happens to be talking on screen, and a walking racial stereotype.
The reasons are well covered in this thread, but I cannot expect you (and a couple of like-minded members in this thread) to understand Finn being the latest in a long line of racially motivated characters, so you resort to avoiding the matter, sans providing substance for your denials other than "no, its not". You can say "no, its not" until doomsday, but it does not move the needle even an inch toward your side of the matter.
Clearly, he's talking about TFA, which is applicable in a discussion on the Finn character. Being obtuse is not making a point.
Much like what was pointed out above: if Hela says "no, its not" sans any evidence, then, no, its not. Er...yyyeah.....
He's talking about a larger issue, one you do not seem to understand--tokenism at the hands of the Hollywood liberals:
...is what I've said throughout this thread: Hollywood liberals sell themselves as the most progressive, open-minded collective on earth, yet you're never going to see a black character--males in particular--I (in film history's biggest franchise) treated in the same way as whites, not in being a full on black male with self-respect, and self-determination to add his actions to the story in undeniably significant ways as part of steady growth. Moreover, from my own arguments, I've already provided TLJ as evidence of hyper-liberal Kathleen Kennedy erect a Trumpian wall between Finn and Rey in the form of Rose.
Further-
The dominance in is in the form of runaway sanitation worker/stormtrooper Finn so incompetent, that he cannot escape one calamity after another without the help of a series of non-black characters all having a position and/or ability superior to his own. Adding insult to injury, one of his kind rescuers (Poe) gives this runaway his new name. I'm not pretending that the subtext of that entire relationship has no racial stereotyping influence, as TFA was not making any kind of commentary on slavery. This was about the perception of the black male lead. I've already covered how this treatment continues in TLJ.
No. You have ignored a list which easily addressed your East Asian claim, only to create a list not specific to the black male/white female issue of the Star Wars sequel trilogy,(Fate of the Furious, JJ Trek, The Flash), and of course, you skipped over the complaints aimed at the DC Comics/CW TV series Supergirl regarding the lead and the James Olsen character (I've posted reaction video and quotes in the Supergirl threads on this board in the past), and although you mentioned Iris/Barry (which does not fit the specif discussed here), you conveniently pretend the "she's just not right" arguments that were aimed at the Iris character since her first appearance on The Flash. Those who criticized her offered no rational reason for their distaste, leaving the same reason for the torrential flood of the anti-Brooks as Olsen fans: he's "wrong" (especially as a romantic interest for the white heroine) because he's black.
You seem rather desperate to say racism against black males alone and/or involved with white females does not exist, and is not being played out in the Star Wars sequel trilogy.
This from the member with post after post of no evidence to support anything, which leads to...
Mirror shattered into a thousand pieces from the "you're so far gone you cannot even see you are describing yourself" impact of your post.
I was looking forward to that fight and appreciated it as a follow up from TFA's confrontation, were FInn moves from a less uncertain and overcompensation position to one of superiority, owning his new status as a "rebel."
So, perhaps avoid the hyperbolic "no one" and "pointless." It worked well in the story in my opinion.
