Generations (spoilers)

[AJBryant]

Therin of Andor said:

AJBryant said:
why didn't he just get in a shuttlecraft and park in front of it and wait?

The film itself showed pretty clearly that you can't just drive into the Nexus. The effect destroyed the first shipload of El-Aurian refugees, and only a few on the second ship survived.

I call BS. The only casualty of the Enterprise hit was Kirk, who was Nexusified.

The We don't KNOW there were actual casualties on Guinan's ship -- the people who were "dying" were being Nexusified when they were forcebly rescued; remember Sorin's reaction?

Who GIVES a damn if the ship is destroyed, when THAT seems to be the approved way -- THE ONLY WAY WE SAW IT -- to get sucked into the Nexus?

The writers can't have it both ways.


Tony

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Nebusj said:

canadaboy_32 said:
And as for the Duras sisters, they are two different actresses! Is it so hard to look at imdb.com or something and see which actress played what to get it right?

All right; I'm always eager to learn. What's a line that is distinctly Lursa, that sets her character apart from Betor? ``My name is Lursa'' doesn't count; it has to be something where we actually see what kind of person she is, and that makes her distinct from the other.

She's bigger, uglier and less horny... Seriously... Lursa wasn't the one trying to get with Worf in "Redemption Part II."

 

[Jon1701]

Memo to all Trekbbs Departments:

Generations does not make sense.

 

[Danny99]

^^ B'Etor's the one with the line "I hope for your sake, you were initiating a mating ritual..." in their first scene. She also has the line "He must be the only engineer in Starfleet who doesn't go to Engineering!"

 

[The Old Mixer]

Those lines that you had so much fun memorizing? They were written by the two guys you accuse of not knowing anything about the series or movie.

Artists are often less fixated with their past work than those who admire them (or their work, in this case). John Lennon, for example, was all about whatever he was doing at the moment, and at one point said that if he could, he'd redo everything that he'd done with the Beatles differently. And as is well known around these parts, many Star Wars fans have serious issues with George Lucas for tampering with the original movies.

 

[Kegek]

The Old Mixer said:
Those lines that you had so much fun memorizing? They were written by the two guys you accuse of not knowing anything about the series or movie.

It's a basic disconnect essential for fanhood. You love the product, hate the producer. Hence the fans of Star Wars, whose love for the original, unremastered trilogy is matched only by their seething hatred for its creator, George Lucas.

Likewise for Enterprise fans, who love aspects of the show but heap scorn on its creators, Berman and Braga.

And here, too, two of TNG's chief writers, Moore and Braga -I believe Moore even created the Duras sisters, and both of these men were writing the finale and the movie at the same time - are considered disrespectful to the show.

I don't understand it either. But it's the internet.

 

[Mark Boeder]

I'd cut Braga and Moore a little slack. They were 9 or 10 years removed from GENERATIONS and TNG when the commentary track was recorded. They were both busy with other projects in the interim, so I can't blame them for forgetting a few little details. On the whole, I thought it was one of the best commentary tracks I've heard on a Trek DVD and worth the purchase itself.

Having said that, I was surprised by how little Braga apparently knew of TOS, especially since he was working on ENTERPRISE at the time. It's been a few years since I listened to it, but I remember Braga making a comment about something in GENERATIONS being (I'm paraphrasing) "the first time we've seen that in Trek," followed by Moore's correction that it had been done as far back as TOS.

As far as the movie itself, I thought Soran should have been presented as more of a tragic figure instead of just the standard-issue mustache-twirler. He's like a junkie that needs his fix; he knows that he's probably hurting others in his desperation to get it, maybe even regrets his behavior, but the addiction leaves him with little choice. Picard would sincerely try to help him before being forced, reluctantly, to kill him. I think that would have been more powerful (and truer to the spirit of Trek) than the cliched blow-up-the-villian resolution. Make the audience mourn his inevitable demise rather than simply cheer his destruction.

That's my two cents', anyway.

Mark

 

[Danny99]

The Old Mixer said:
Those lines that you had so much fun memorizing? They were written by the two guys you accuse of not knowing anything about the series or movie.

Artists are often less fixated with their past work than those who admire them (or their work, in this case). John Lennon, for example, was all about whatever he was doing at the moment, and at one point said that if he could, he'd redo everything that he'd done with the Beatles differently. And as is well known around these parts, many Star Wars fans have serious issues with George Lucas for tampering with the original movies.

Are you having fun?

All my point is maybe take two seconds to get your facts straight before you go record a commentary. Besides, I bet there are other fans out there who are pissed about smaller details.

 

[Plum]

Mark Boeder said:
I'd cut Braga and Moore a little slack. They were 9 or 10 years removed from GENERATIONS and TNG when the commentary track was recorded. They were both busy with other projects in the interim, so I can't blame them for forgetting a few little details. On the whole, I thought it was one of the best commentary tracks I've heard on a Trek DVD and worth the purchase itself.

Having said that, I was surprised by how little Braga apparently knew of TOS, especially since he was working on ENTERPRISE at the time. It's been a few years since I listened to it, but I remember Braga making a comment about something in GENERATIONS being (I'm paraphrasing) "the first time we've seen that in Trek," followed by Moore's correction that it had been done as far back as TOS.

As far as the movie itself, I thought Soran should have been presented as more of a tragic figure instead of just the standard-issue mustache-twirler. He's like a junkie that needs his fix; he knows that he's probably hurting others in his desperation to get it, maybe even regrets his behavior, but the addiction leaves him with little choice. Picard would sincerely try to help him before being forced, reluctantly, to kill him. I think that would have been more powerful (and truer to the spirit of Trek) than the cliched blow-up-the-villian resolution. Make the audience mourn his inevitable demise rather than simply cheer his destruction.

That's my two cents', anyway.

Mark

Very well said.

 

[Therin of Andor]

AJBryant said:
I call BS... The writers can't have it both ways.

Well, I saw only one way, so it didn't affect my enjoyment of the movie on its first screening. Call BS all you like, but I saw no plothole there.

 

[T'Cal]

I have the audio-novelization of this movie as read wonderfully by John DeLancie. Although abridged, it has a couple of extra scenes that the movie lacks; they are with Bones and Spock, and they are excellent. We also learn that Soran's wife and two children were killed by the Borg while on the El Aurian homeworld. Grief-stricken, Soran leaves with the other refugees on the Lakul. When it gets too close to the nexus, the people on board are pulled into and then ripped out of the nexus, which is how it was described by Scotty on the E-B. While there in the nexus for a brief time, Soran is reunited with his family and everything is perfect in his universe again. When he's yanked out, he feels he's lost them all over again and must do anything to be reunited with them. That explaination was so much better than the one presented in the movie, which pretty much glossed over it.

While I enjoy the movie, it has many holes in the nexus plot. I recommend the audio-novel over the movie.

 

[Plum]

^^^
Wow, really? Yea, that would have been way more interesting.

 

[T'Cal]

I just editted and added a line

 

[AJBryant]

Therin of Andor said:

AJBryant said:
I call BS... The writers can't have it both ways.

Well, I saw only one way, so it didn't affect my enjoyment of the movie on its first screening. Call BS all you like, but I saw no plothole there.

No, I meant they can't have it both ways by (1) showing people being Nexusified from ships in space, and then say (2) you CAN'T be Nexusified from a ship in space.

Clearly, you CAN.

Tony

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Huh? When did the writers say that people "CAN'T be Nexusified from a ship in space"? Soren knows that he was, briefly, and then yanked back, but he also knows that the Nexus seemingly destroys ships. He's spent decades studying it and has decided that bringing the Nexus to a planet is going to be more likely to be successful.

 

[Kegek]

^
Based on... what?

Soran insists it's 'the only way' (verbatim quote). He got in while his ship was being destroyed, and by all accounts would have stayed there if he wasn't in the process of being beamed out.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Hey, Mr. Insane Scientist Guy, you wanna join your wife and family? Mr. Worf, how he could do that without slaughtering millions of people?

"Die."

 

[Therin of Andor]

Based on the fact that most ships get ripped to shreds when they meet the Nexus. On my first viewing of "Generations", it was my impression that only Guinan, Soren and a few other El-Aurians actually met the Nexus afterlife, so I never had the expectation that Soren could get back in easily, such as by calmly flying a pokey little shuttlecraft next to the violent thrashing of the Nexus and simply waiting for it to claim him.

If your assumption is that all passengers and crew of both the Robert Fox and the Lakul made it safely into the Nexus, then you'll have a different view, but it was never mine, and my view was later supported by my subsequent readings of the script, novelization, comic adaptation, audiobook and publicity pressbook.

 

[Kegek]

^
Plugging plot holes in other sources doesn't count as evidence. There was nothing in the film to indicate they didn't get in, and the fantastic entrance of Kirk - ripped through a bulkhead - strongly implied just about anything living that came into contact with the Nexus wound up in its own personal paradise. For all we know, the bacteria in Kirk's body now infest perfect beings in the ribbon.

I wouldn't even concede the script in this case. If there's something in the script that didn't make it into the film, then it's not in the film.

 

[Nebusj]

Kegek said:
^
Plugging plot holes in other sources doesn't count as evidence. There was nothing in the film to indicate they didn't get in, and the fantastic entrance of Kirk - ripped through a bulkhead - strongly implied just about anything living that came into contact with the Nexus wound up in its own personal paradise.

Picard does ask Data why Soran doesn't just fly a ship in, and Data says that every ship which approached was severely damaged or destroyed in the attempt. And at this point they don't have evidence that Kirk is in the Nexus, or that Guinan has an echo of herself in there, although she and Soran were obviously in long enough to get some idea of what it was.

I certainly took it that if you get sucked up by the Nexus spark you're in and that's that, since that is how it worked for all the characters we saw get hit with it.