generations question

[Therin of Andor]

The Federation really should have been told who the Borg are...etc..

If the El-Aurians come from the Delta Quadrant, they might think the Borg would be kept busy assimilating Delta Quadrant residents for several centuries. Which they were.

Space is bloody big. The Borg could be one of many such undefeatable powers. How do you prepare for an enemy that is so far away and so undefeatable? Even if a handful of refugees described the Borg with great accuracy - and maybe they did? - the information obviously became highly classified. Ditto the Borg incident from Archer's era.

We know now, from "Voyager", that Anika Hansen's parents went off investigating Borg before Q introduced Picard to the Borg in "Q Who". So the data is there, but maybe even Picard wasn't privy to such classified information?

 

[Saito S]

TROI and Worf? Typo?

Troi and Worf became an item not long after "Parallels" revealed to Worf that he was with Deanna in several alternate universes. The relationship was a crucial plot point in "All Good Things..."

The show being discussed when Poopday said what I quoted and responded to was DS9, not TNG, hence my assumption that "Troi" was a typo.

Not to mention that he came up with the idea of families and children being carried aboard Galaxy-class ships in the first place, didn't he?

More likely David Gerrold, who also suggested Lesley Crusher, a girl, as a main character. It was Roddenberry who suggested that Wesley, Riker and Picard might represent himself at various stages of his own life.

Ah, ok. I didn't know for sure if Roddenberry was the one who actually originated the idea or not. Thanks for the info.

it's also established that these El-Aurian refugees are being relocated due to the Borg destroying their home world.

But it's not established that they were recent victims of the Borg. Maybe El-Auria was attacked much earlier - maybe when Guinan was on Earth, or even before?

During a brief scene in sickbay shortly after the star at Amargosa goes kaboom, Crusher's dialog states with no ambiguity that the ships encountered by the Ent-B during the first part of the movie were carrying El-Aurian refugees escaping the destruction of their homeworld at the hands of the Borg. So unfortunately, it IS established that they WERE "recent victims" of the Borg attack against the El-Aurian homeworld. I say unfortunate, because it means there really is no good explanation for why the UFP knew nothing of the Borg after the Ent-B rescued those 47 refugees. And it also creates an additional, entirely separate plot hole, since Guinan was ON that ship, and the implication from the movie is that she, too, was escaping said homeworld destruction... yet Guinan actually says in "Q Who?" that she wasn't there personally when her homeworld was destroyed.

The Federation really should have been told who the Borg are...etc..

If the El-Aurians come from the Delta Quadrant, they might think the Borg would be kept busy assimilating Delta Quadrant residents for several centuries. Which they were.

Space is bloody big. The Borg could be one of many such undefeatable powers. How do you prepare for an enemy that is so far away and so undefeatable? Even if a handful of refugees described the Borg with great accuracy - and maybe they did? - the information obviously became highly classified. Ditto the Borg incident from Archer's era.

We know now, from "Voyager", that Anika Hansen's parents went off investigating Borg before Q introduced Picard to the Borg in "Q Who". So the data is there, but maybe even Picard wasn't privy to such classified information?

Maybe. That Picard wouldn't have had access to that info is possible, but the implication from BoBW is that Starfleet and the UFP as a WHOLE treat their knowledge of the Borg as dating back to the incident from "Q Who?". And since SOMEONE among those 47 refugees would have no doubt had plenty to say about the Borg...

And I never liked the Borg incident in ENT, nor the idea that the Hansens were just studying the Borg years before Q first introduced Picard to them. Reckless retconning that shoehorned the Borg into parts of the Trek backstory that they had no business being in.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Crusher's dialog states with no ambiguity that the ships encountered by the Ent-B during the first part of the movie were carrying El-Aurian refugees escaping the destruction of their homeworld at the hands of the Borg.

I always saw it as very ambiguous. The El-Aurians could have tried settling in various places, over decades, before finally seeking help and refuge from the Federation. One ship is named onscreen as the Lakul. The script names the other as the Robert Fox, named for the Federation ambassador from "A Taste of Armageddon" (TOS).

yet Guinan actually says in "Q Who?" that she wasn't there personally when her homeworld was destroyed.

Exactly, Maybe Guinan had to search for them after her sojourn in the USA.

And I never liked the Borg incident in ENT, nor the idea that the Hansens were just studying the Borg years before Q first introduced Picard to them.

Nevertheless, it's canon, and seemingly outweighs the ambiguity you mentioned earlier.

 

[Saito S]

Crusher's dialog states with no ambiguity that the ships encountered by the Ent-B during the first part of the movie were carrying El-Aurian refugees escaping the destruction of their homeworld at the hands of the Borg.

I always saw it as very ambiguous. The El-Aurians could have tried settling in various places, over decades, before finally seeking help and refuge from the Federation. One ship is named onscreen as the Lakul. The script names the other as the Robert Fox, named for the Federation ambassador from "A Taste of Armageddon" (TOS).

Here is what Crusher says:

He lost his entire family when the Borg destroyed his planet. Soren escaped with a handful of other refugees aboard a ship called the Lakul.

Those lines imply strongly that the Lakul fled directly after the destruction of the El-Aurian homeworld. However, Crusher's information might not be entirely complete; what she says could be the short version, leaving out a period of time during which they moved from one place to another.

That said, it's a "could be". Those lines by Crusher are, in my opinion, meant to imply that the ships rescued a group of El-Aurians shortly after the Borg destroyed their world, and from there, went straight toward Earth, running into the Nexus ribbon and the Ent-B along the way. Your explanation is certainly plausible, and in-universe is probably the best way to go to try and get it to make sense, but in terms of the cause of the discrepancy, I don't believe the writers had this explanation in mind, I think they just flubbed and forgot about Guinan's dialog in "Q Who?" when writing GEN.

yet Guinan actually says in "Q Who?" that she wasn't there personally when her homeworld was destroyed.

Exactly, Maybe Guinan had to search for them after her sojourn in the USA.

As I said above, we as fans can come up with explanations like this, but in terms of what the writers intended, I still think it's just an error. When writing GEN, they just liked the idea of linking Guinan to the plot, and of showing her and other El-Aurians escaping the destruction of their homeworld, and simply forgot about the "Q Who?" lines.

And I never liked the Borg incident in ENT, nor the idea that the Hansens were just studying the Borg years before Q first introduced Picard to them.

Nevertheless, it's canon, and seemingly outweighs the ambiguity you mentioned earlier.

Not disputing the canon-ness of either of those things, just saying I don't like them as plot developments.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It wouldn't be inconceivable that even some admirals weren't aware of the Borg, either.

 

[Sisko4Life]

I still don't understand how the Enterprise-D loses to a 20 year old bird of prey with shields offline but the Odyssey can stand up to 3 Jem'Hadar attack ships without shields for 5+ minutes and have them resort a kamakaze jus to kill it... -_- Clearly the Enterprise-D was a weaker Galaxy Class :-P

 

[DonIago]

To be fair, I suspect the Odyssey was a later build than the Enterprise, so it may have had somewhat more advanced systems.

Also the Klingons probably have a better idea of Starfleet ship weaknesses than the Dominion ships did at the time.

Or, if you prefer, the Jem'hadar were toying with the Odyssey knowing the whole time how things would likely pan out.

 

[G2309]

I think Ron Moore was waylaid by Branon Braga. Moore is the far better writer.

 

[RandyS]

I think Ron Moore was waylaid by Branon Braga. Moore is the far better writer.

Thanks for that! I needed that laugh.

 

[DWF]

I still don't understand how the Enterprise-D loses to a 20 year old bird of prey with shields offline but the Odyssey can stand up to 3 Jem'Hadar attack ships without shields for 5+ minutes and have them resort a kamakaze jus to kill it... -_- Clearly the Enterprise-D was a weaker Galaxy Class :-P

The Enterprise's shields were online the shots were just going though the shields. And it was something of a lucky hit to take out the Enterprise. And I too think the Jem Hadar were testing the Odyssey to see how much it could take and the kamakaze run was to prove just what they could do if they wanted to, we'd see the same kind of tactics in Tears Of The Prophets.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Lucky shots still happen, even to the most skilled fighters.