General Star Trek starship thread.

[Henoch]

Then again, Apollo's ilk would have crushed all the hero ships without trying, too. Why waste your most expensive frontline ships on such duties when a two-man scout can deliver the ambassador to his or her glowing success or gruesome death at so much lower a cost?

Exploration has traditionally been bestowed on expendable ships (that is, ones not needed for fighting or deterrent), and Kirk's (Pike's) certainly seems to fit that bill...

Timo Saloniemi

I get your points, but I see the Federation as trying to FIX those problems BY creating the biggest and best starships with the goal that they will survive on dangerous missions and NOT be expendable, anymore. You know governments, if you spend a lot of money on a project and it fails, they just throw more money at the problem. Was the TOS era of expensive powerful ships a failure? In three seasons of the show, we have 3 Starships lost (Constellation, Intrepid, Defiant) and a couple badly damaged but probably fixable in the Ultimate Computer, but also lost 2 full crews (Excalibur, Essex). Fairly steep price to pay in 3-5 years: 3 or 4 ships lost and 5 ship crews dead. They apparently threw even more money at the problem since we eventually get TNG...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Exploration has traditionally been bestowed on expendable ships (that is, ones not needed for fighting or deterrent), and Kirk's (Pike's) certainly seems to fit that bill...

Then why send ships at all with that attitude? We can send a Bazillion probes for the cost of 1 ship and create a giant probe network. Never have to leave our own UFP territory.

At some point, ships do have to come about. There are only so many things a probe can do.

 

[Ithekro]

he question would be if those kinds of starship losses are common, or if Kirk happened to be out during a difficult five year period?

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Then why send ships at all with that attitude? We can send a Bazillion probes for the cost of 1 ship and create a giant probe network. Never have to leave our own UFP territory.

At some point, ships do have to come about. There are only so many things a probe can do.

A number of episodes have answered this question. Yes, ships do have to come eventually, because humans WANT to explore and learn, and with a peaceful Earth, they have the time. "Risk is our business..." Kirk said it, not me

 

[Timo]

And my argument is that the choice of ships there is a compromise, an optimization if you will - not top of the line, not particularly big, exactly because of the risk. Which is pretty much what we see, with other ships being bigger than Kirk's, with ships like Kirk's dropping like flies, etc.

Treating Kirk's ship as one of the biggest and best doesn't seem to offer anything extra IMHO, not with the contrary evidence mounting. An old relic that automatically makes heroes of any people who dare fly one would fit the TOS, DSC and Kelvin bills alike. Plus, you know, in-universe experts are adamant that she should have been hauled away as garbage...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

And my argument is that the choice of ships there is a compromise, an optimization if you will - not top of the line, not particularly big, exactly because of the risk. Which is pretty much what we see, with other ships being bigger than Kirk's, with ships like Kirk's dropping like flies, etc.

"Ships like Kirk's dropping like flies" - how do you define that? Just watching TOS it would seem almost every Federation ship we encounter or hear about was doomed to be destroyed in the episode (except for the Enterprise, Lexington, Potemkin and Hood). It would appear that your best chance to survive was to be on a ship like Kirk's

Valiant destroyed = not like Kirk's ship ("WNMHGB")
Columbia crashed = not like Kirk's ship ("The Cage")
Archon = not like Kirk's ship ("Return of the Archons")
Antares destroyed = not like Kirk's ship ("Charlie X")
Mudd's Class J Cargo ship destroyed = not like Kirk's ship ("Mudd's Women")
Intrepid destroyed = probably like Kirk's ship ("The Immunity Syndrome")
Valiant destroyed = unknown, 50 years before, probably not like Kirk's ship ("A Taste of Armageddon")
Denevan ship = not like Kirk's ship ("Operation: Annihilate")
Constellation destroyed = a variant like Kirk's ship ("The Doomsday Machine")
Horizon destroyed = not like Kirk's ship ("A Piece of the Action")
Defiant lost = like Kirk's ship ("The Tholian Web")
Automated cargo ship = not like Kirk's ship ("The Ultimate Computer")
Excalibur crew killed = like Kirk's ship ("The Ultimate Computer")
Aurora destroyed = not like Kirk's ship ("The Way to Eden")
Exeter crew loss = like Kirk's ship ("The Omega Glory")

Treating Kirk's ship as one of the biggest and best doesn't seem to offer anything extra IMHO, not with the contrary evidence mounting. An old relic that automatically makes heroes of any people who dare fly one would fit the TOS, DSC and Kelvin bills alike. Plus, you know, in-universe experts are adamant that she should have been hauled away as garbage...

I would argue that Kirk's ship was probably not the biggest but it was among the best the fleet had at the time. There were probably cruise liners, colony ships, support ships and battleships that were larger in size.

We know that the Enterprise is as fast any ship in the fleet making her uncatchable by others in the fleet ("I, Mudd"). She would still have unbroken speed records in "The Search for Spock". And the Romulans valued the Enterprise enough to not attack the Enterprise in order to take her whole in order to study her technology ("The Enterprise Incident").

Kirk's line, "risk is our business" spelled out that the Federation and Starfleet had the will to send a range of ships including their best and take the losses and keep on going despite the dangers, IMHO.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

I would argue that Kirk's ship was probably not the biggest but it was among the best the fleet had at the time. There were probably cruise liners, colony ships, support ships and battleships that were larger in size.

We know that the Enterprise is as fast any ship in the fleet making her uncatchable by others in the fleet ("I, Mudd"). She would still have unbroken speed records in "The Search for Spock". And the Romulans valued the Enterprise enough to not attack the Enterprise in order to take her whole in order to study her technology ("The Enterprise Incident").

I can accept that there were ships bigger than the Enterprise to a degree. I have said before, I know somewhat questionably, that if one looks at the Kelvin's likely actual capabilities, plus functional area excluding crew facilities and uninhabited sections, it is not much larger if at all than the Enterprise, and less capable. I could also accept that perhaps something like the Dreadnought existed in Kirk's time: bigger and more firepower, but not as well-rounded. But I do feel that the show implies that "Star Ships" are special and in the TOS show, the term "Star Ship" or "starship" however it was spelled, was only used to apply to ships very like Kirk's Enterprise.

I get the contention that the Enterprise could be a light, fast ship, and be smaller than what came before. The Kelvin works to make the original Enterprise look sleeker in that regard in my opinion. It does make sense that maybe ships got bigger in the Federation's early days, but that they were not convenient to use or maintain, so that by TOS, ships were more capable and sleeker. I do not think that the show somehow makes its heroes look better because they have an old, small ship.

In general, much of the new stuff should be considered in an altered timeline. The show's producers can say what they want about Star Trek's canon, but while I could accept that there was a fleet of ships 25%-50% bigger than the Enterprise in a battle at some point prior to Kirk's command, I could not accept that that was the typical ship size as late as 2256. As such, the argument that we must now consider the Enterprise small, thanks to this new online show, does not work for me.

Rather, the Enterprise is special in that, even at possibly 20 years old, it is still powerful and advanced in TOS.

 

[blssdwlf]

But I do feel that the show implies that "Star Ships" are special and in the TOS show, the term "Star Ship" or "starship" however it was spelled, was only used to apply to ships very like Kirk's Enterprise.

Well, yes, when "starships" are used specifically in reference to commands in TOS we hear in "Breads and Circuses" that a starship captain was more prestigious with more responsibilities than a spaceship captain. We also know that there are transport captains ("Mudd's Women") and other types of ships out there.

I just keep it simple and treat Discovery as it's own universe and the ENT-TNG-DS9-VOY series as the Prime universe, Abrams movies as the Kelvin universe and TOS as it's own universe. That way as far as TOS-continuity is concerned, starships were Enterprise-sized. In the Discovery and Kelvin universes everything is scaled up so their starships are just larger.

 

[Ithekro]

Well even Commodore Stone in "Court Martial" says something about the special place of people that have command of a Starship (like himself prior to being assigned to Starbase 11 and Captain Kirk).

 

[Timo]

...in the TOS show, the term "Star Ship" or "starship" however it was spelled, was only used to apply to ships very like Kirk's Enterprise.

...What?

No, there was no limit on how the word was applied. We never saw it directly connected to the thing later known as the Constitution class. Very much to the contrary, "Star Ship" applied to a bewildering range of registry numbers apparently randomly collected at a starbase.

Kirk's ship might just barely have made it into starship category. Or then she was the very cream of the cream of the cream - back when launched. Or then she was still hot as of the 2260s. Nothing limits our interpretations there, not yet; it's DSC's turn to decide whether a narrowing of options is due.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

it's DSC's turn to decide whether a narrowing of options is due.

DSC already decided that with their own Enterprise design and technology that is different than the TOS version making the two series already incompatible, IMO. DSC's ships are like the Kelvin-universe ships where they are much larger.

 

[The Librarian]

The Discovery Enterprise is only slightly larger than the old 'official' size, and everyone's known for decades that number was too small to actually fit the interiors.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The Discovery Enterprise is only slightly larger than the old 'official' size, and everyone's known for decades that number was too small to actually fit the interiors.

TrekYards has disagreed with that concept specifically.

 

[The Librarian]

TrekYards has disagreed with that concept specifically.

And Bernd Schneider spent a decade claiming the Kelvin Enterprise was half its actual size. You can't fit two decks, especially tall TOS decks, into the saucer rim at 289 meters. It's why Drexler had to size it up for IAMD.

 

[Henoch]

The Discovery Enterprise is only slightly larger than the old 'official' size, and everyone's known for decades that number was too small to actually fit the interiors.

Nah, there's four or five guys on this site alone that's been putting the interior sets into a 947-1080 foot Enterprise for years. A lot of beautiful work. We don't need a bigger boat.

It's why Drexler had to size it up for IAMD.

I'm so sad that he did it. Blew a great chance to make great canon. Now, it just blows.

 

[valkyrie013]

Yet we don't talk about scaling up the Millennium Falcon.. That has alot of Tardising going on as well. There are plenty of ships in the sci fi universe, not star trek specific, that has a set size, yet would never fit what is shown as an interior on screen. And please don't say "It was never said on screen" .. when was the Aluminum Falcon mentioned on size on screen? Or the Star Destroyer? Its all been from behind the sceens stuff. and for 50+ years the Tos Enterprise has been 289 Meters on all behind the sceens paperwork from Star trek Tmp, 3, Tng Ect.
and changing it from 289 430 is not a "minor" tweat, making it 305m like the refit is a tweak.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

16 meter increase over 289 meter original length is ~5.536% increase in length. Now this is a minor tweak.

141 meter increase over 289 meter original length is ~48.789% increase in length. This however, is a big revision.

 

[Ithekro]

Real world ship have been lengthened by a bit in rebuilts and reconstructions. The Kongo-class battlecruisers, when the first was built in Britain in 1911, it was around 214 meters long. When they were rebuilt in Japan in the 1930s, they came out at 222 meters long. This was to improve their waveform so they could move faster with their improved engines (if your engines are too powerful for your waveform, your bow plows into the ocean rather than riding on top of it. See Froude number).

 

[Charles Markov]

Real world ship have been lengthened by a bit in rebuilts and reconstructions. The Kongo-class battlecruisers, when the first was built in Britain in 1911, it was around 214 meters long. When they were rebuilt in Japan in the 1930s, they came out at 222 meters long. This was to improve their waveform so they could move faster with their improved engines (if your engines are too powerful for your waveform, your bow plows into the ocean rather than riding on top of it. See Froude number).

How often though have they been subsequently trimmed down to their original length? And appearance? Are we to believe that Starfleet commissioned the Constitution class ships and they appeared as they did in the cage sometime 2245-50, only to radically enlarge the design, change their appearance drastically and then, only a few years later change the ship back? Taking your Kongo class analogy further that would be like receiving the ships in 1911, refitting them regularly in the WWI period and 1920s, radically changing them in the 30s by lengthening them, adding new engines, secondary weapons, new hull sections and other technologies, and then going back to the way the ships looked when they were first delivered thirty years ago. I somehow don't see Starfleet doing that, no matter the oddball decisions they have made in the shows.
I just tend to think of Discovery as its own thing. Almost a BSG style reboot of the Trek franchise. New ships, uniforms, characters but same basic shapes and aliens and every now and then out of place call backs to the originals with adaptations of characters (Mudd comes to mind) uniforms and ships.

 

[Ithekro]

If they needed a bigger warp core I could see a size inflation. and then later they get a smaller, but different shaped warp core, they might alter the ship in a different direction. Though usually Starfleet would just repurpose the space taken over by having the engine room moved to a different area (the horizontal warp core of the older Constitutions replaced by a vertical shaft warp core results in a massive refit, but area where the warp core use to be is now cargo storage).