General Pro Wrestling News and Discussion Thread Part Deux!

[Admiral_Young]

It does, I agree. Maybe that is a sign that it has become burned in our minds! Every time I hear "Burn it to the Ground" elsewhere...I think RAW (Good or bad lol)!!! So I suppose it's done it's job since most theme songs in theory are supposed to make you think of their shows.

I am a Green Day fan...but the Smackdown theme has never felt "right" for Smackdown. It is so tame compared to Raw lol.

Trying to watch Raw spoiler free and having WWE update it's facebook page constantly is rather amusing and frustrating at the same time lol. Also Jericho losing constantly is becoming boring.

 

[Mr Silver]

CM Punk heel turn = about time.

And as long as he isn't doing the classic heel jobs that every other heel in the WWE has been doing for the last couple of years, I'm perfectly happy.

Raw 1000 was good and bad, I felt that there could have been more of a payoff with the Triple H/Brock Lesnar storyline rather than what we saw, although it's good that the match if officially confirmed so we don't have to put up with the pseudo-legal crap about lawsuits and contracts. Charlie Sheen was diabolical and his segments where he was blatantly being fed lines took up a good 10 or so minutes of the show. The possibility of a match between him and Daniel Bryan is reassuring though, as it not only shows that the company has faith in him as a performer, but it also allows Bryan the chance to develop on route to being a major player in the WWE.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jack Swagger is wished the best in his future endeavours, given that he has now sunk to losing almost instantly to Brodus Clay without being allowed any offense. I thought the full (well almost full - no Chyna, but that's understandable) DX reunion was great and the return of Undertaker and the reunion of the Brothers of Destruction was awesome too. Speaking of awesome, It was great to see Miz get his mojo back by winning the Intercontinental Championship in what was a decent match against Christian.

Well, Cena became the first person to cash in the MITB contract and lose - albeit by DQ at the hands of Big Show. I just knew there was some kind of CM Punk turn coming when he refused to try and assist Cena as he was being layed out by Show at the post-match. When The Rock ran out and was promptly demolished by CM Punk I actually celebrated because FINALLY (pun intended) CM Punk has reached that level where he is credible to work a huge program with a massive name like The Rock and one in which people hold intense interest - I think it was 65% for a Punk/Rock match at the Rumble compared to 35% for Cena/Rock II.

I was expecting more in the way of a major angle (and perhaps the introduction of the new WWE Championship belt) but if you ignore the Charlie Sheen stuff and the unrelenting reference to Tout and Twitter, it was definitely a show that was worthy of marking the 1000th episode milestone. (well, mostly anyway!)

 

[Admiral_Young]

I knew I shouldn't have clicked in here without finishing watching first...my mistake.

What do you mean it's about time for a CM Punk heel turn? He's been a face for an entire year, and before that he was a heel with Nexus for quite some time during his "Straight Edge" phase. This heel turn though should be fascinating...

Charlie Sheen was brutal and irrelevant. I'll comment more later.

I marked out for Miz winning the IC Championship, even at Christian's expense and Bret introducing them both. Seeing the Brothers of Destruction back together was indeed awesome as the crowd was chanting.

 

[Mr Silver]

What do you mean it's about time for a CM Punk heel turn? He's been a face for an entire year, and before that he was a heel with Nexus for quite some time during his "Straight Edge" phase. This heel turn though should be fascinating...

Well the face run was getting stale just prior to Wrestlemania and I wanted to see the end of following his feud with Chris Jericho because he had essentially worked with anybody who is anyone.

I actually thought that a double turn was going to occur during the feud with Daniel Bryan, given his huge surge in popularity and the presence of AJ which would have lended itself beautifully had Punk suddenly revealed that he was using AJ all along.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I agree with you that I thought Punk might turn heel during the Bryan feud, and I thought they'd turn Bryan face...but nope.

I really don't know why I get so excited for WWE now. The rumours usually turn out to be more exciting than the actual shows are now. I have to learn to lower my expectations apparently.

Just saw it...that was awesome. I'm guessing that Punk's heel turn is part of that new angle that was rumoured.


I'd give the entire show about a 6/10...if I was being really generous I'd probably give it a 7/10. It had some fun moments, it was nice seeing all those legends back...it managed to continue current programs and story lines, and even tossed in a couple of major surprises, but it wasn't must see IMO.

Anyone think it was weird that Stone Cold was not there? Do we know why he wasn't there? It felt odd. I would have liked to have seen some kind of WHAT segment between him and Vince or something.

Also I got the distinct feeling that Trish was uncomfortable with Waltman putting his arm around her and chatting her up. That was really weird and awkward lol.

 

[timothy]

Waltman is just a creepy guy in my opinion. So what does this mean for johnn cena and his title shot?

 

[Satyrquaze]

^John Cena is the first person to fail to cash-in the MitB suitcase.

 

[Ghost Bones]

CM Punk's just turned face in my book. Moment of the evening for me was the TNA chant in the main event (would have been the BoD reunion were it not for the Undertaker taking his typical 4 hours to get to the ring and then botching taking his hood down with the clap of thunder).

 

[Sheep]

Random thoughts:

Like everyone else has already indicated, Austin couldn't get a evening off from filming Grown Ups 2 to make an appearance? Really? I don't blame Austin if he made the commitment but all he had to do was show up and stun or drink a few beers with someone, not wrestle a match and risk injury if that was the concern.

Having Sandow interrupt the DX reunion was awesome. We knew he was going to get squashed considering there were five legends in the ring but it was fun anyway and a great way to give him screen time. Seeing him annoyed at DX discussing what to do among themselves was intentionally funny (or maybe it was unintentional, I don't know). I look forward to Sandow getting more screen time.

I thought Daniel Bryan was going to screw A.J. by having her committed upon seeing the guys in his "wedding party" dressed up like looney bin employees. But Mr. McMahon interrupting the big wedding? I doubt anyone predicted that. A.J. as the new Raw GM? A shocking development, indeed. Good shocking or bad shocking remains to be seen. I loves me some A.J. but I don't see her GM stint lasting too long.

Daniel Bryan vs. Charlie Sheen? Yeah that's a good use of Bryan's talent. Let's hope that feud never actually happens (definitely a possibility with anything involving Charlie Sheen). I might be able to put up with it if Sheen actually showed some signs of being a wrestling fan but it was very obvious he isn't one.

I don't recall Stephanie ever being that vicious on the mic. It's very possible my memory's failing, but it definitely seemed like she had some legit heat with Heyman.

Good to see the Miz back in action and winning the IC championship. The guy might not be the best wrestler in the world (and certainly far from the worst in a world with Khali and Kelly Kelly, both of whom were kept off our screens thankfully), but IMO he's pretty entertaining.

Didn't think I'd say this so soon, but the Rock's already gotten stale despite how infrequently he appears.

Punk heel turn = YES! I'm glad to see they're not keeping his character static, the biggest problem with SuperCena. Regardless of whether he becomes full-on heel or a tweener, it's perfectly believable that he'd do anything to keep his title while ignoring the WWE universe, if necessary. Can't wait for some pipe bombs to be dropped on the Rock and the fans who cheer for the top dogs (Rock and Cena) and forget who Punk is the moment their entrance themes start to play.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Steph has been that heated on the mic before...but nothing as personal as the response to Paul before I don't recall. I also am not any aware of any real heat between the McMahons and Heyman.

 

[Caligula]

Seeing DX and the Brothers of Destruction was great for nostalgia. The main event was great. I was unsure at first about CM Punk turning heel, mostly because I felt like they only did it because they never ever want to turn Cena heel. I'm just glad Cena's inevitable 11th WWE title reign is still put on hold. As CM Punk is the best thing they've had going since 2007, I'll cheer him on regardless of his status.

But when the show went bad, it went full-on BAD. The Muppets (again)? Charlie Sheen? Yet another "wedding" angle that ends with someone getting screwed over? That's one regurgitated script that needs to be thrown in the trash for good, because that type of angle has only ever worked once... when Test and Stephanie's wedding was crashed by Triple H.

 

[tomalak301]

It was a decent show last night, but it was glaring the difference showed between the Stars of the attitude era and the stars of today. For example, we got DX and Brothers of destruction and they had huge pops. Then we got something like the Bryan/AJ wedding, and while it was alright, it felt like it went on way too long. Also, making AJ GM just doesn't make sense to me at the moment. Wasn't she just on NXT like last year?

I was also really disappointed they didn't do much with Austin. I can understand prior committments, but it would have been nice if Austin wasn't going to be there to have a taped via satellite thing like right after his music broke. Maybe a cheers to Raw's 1000th show or something. Like I said last week, would Raw be the program it is had it not been for Stone Cold? I doubt it.

Really liked the Punk heel turn. They need to do more interesting things with characters and bring back maybe a Nexus type feel or something like last year's events at MITB to shake things up. Other than AJ the last few weeks, the product right now is stale.

Back to the glaring difference between stars of yesterday and today, who on the roster is the next Stone Cold or Rock? Who is the next Undertaker? There must be some incredible talent down the pipe and they need to find a way to make that next star? It almost feels like WWE is holding on to the past way too much, while still having a certain PG era, which makes it like a "Have your cake and eat it too" moment. They can do fun stuff under the PG guidelines (As stated, the Nexus or last year's angle with Punk being examples) but that takes development. I don't think that's happening at the moment and that's a shame.

 

[Shakaar]

I gotta agree. I'll admit that I haven't watched much lately, mostly because I haven't really been that impressed with any of the young guys they have now. Even when they DO get somebody with real in-ring talent, they tend to suck with a microphone. People like Stone Cold, Foley and The Rock used to be able to come to the ring and talk for 30 minutes or more, without even wrestling, and you were entertained.

Every time they show a RAW flashback or have an old star return, it just illustrates, to me anyway, how far they've fallen. In some ways there just doesn't seem to be the passion like there used to be. Whats more, I think the WWE realizes this and that's why we keep getting older people returning for cameos and guest shots.

Plus, I really miss JR calling matches. He could make a mediocre match SO much better just with his commentary.

 

[Mr Silver]

Back to the glaring difference between stars of yesterday and today, who on the roster is the next Stone Cold or Rock? Who is the next Undertaker? There must be some incredible talent down the pipe and they need to find a way to make that next star? It almost feels like WWE is holding on to the past way too much, while still having a certain PG era, which makes it like a "Have your cake and eat it too" moment. They can do fun stuff under the PG guidelines (As stated, the Nexus or last year's angle with Punk being examples) but that takes development. I don't think that's happening at the moment and that's a shame.

Well obviously nobody can "just replace" Stone Cold, The Rock or Undertaker, but I do see what you are saying.

There has not been a star of that level since John Cena's rise to official face of the company sometime in 08-09. Nobody has even come close and this is shameful given the wealth of talent that far exceed Cena's skill as both a wrestler and an entertainer.

So where does the blame lie? Well, the answer is easy but the diagnosis is complicated. WWE is to blame for their huge lapse in creativity along with their narrow mindedness when it comes to talent. In recent years the immediate focus and creative interest has been on guys that are over 6,2 and weigh in at over 240lbs of lean muscle. The smaller, more realistic athletic looking wrestlers aren't seen as "star material" and are therefore left to fight purgatory. Some will find themselves on the rise due to their talent and sheer determination to succeed (CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, etc), whilst some will never break the glass ceiling and end up looking for opportunities elsewhere (MVP, Mr Kennedy, etc).

The problem is that everything centres around John Cena, there is nothing important that he isn't involved in. He is the most prominent person in the show intros, he is also the last person to appear (hold the WWE Championship I may add) in the Raw intro. He has headlined more PPV's than anybody else in the last five years and he seldom loses to anybody, thereby WWE is robbing themselves the opportunity to elevate talent by booking Cena to destroy them. The list goes on and on of the rising talent (or any stars with momentum) that Cena has beat clean and decisively or gotten the better off in the last couple of years:

2010

Sheamus
Batista
Wade Barrett
David Otunga
Darren Young
Skip Sheffield
Justin Gabriel
Heath Slater
Michael Tarver
Husky Harris
Michael McGillicutty

2011

The Miz
Alex Riley
R Truth
Alberto Del Rio
CM Punk
Rey Mysterio


2012

Kane
Brock Lesnar (debatable but Cena's post match promo fucked things up)
The Big Show
Chris Jericho

------------------

Don't get me wrong, the problem isn't Cena himself, it's just the ridiculous booking along with the reluctance to change anything about his character to reflect the current style of storytelling in the WWE is what is ruining the main event.

This ain't a "hater" thing or a "smark" thing, it's nothing but observation and everyone will bring up the fact that in the days of old, the top guys rarely lost - WAKE UP this is the 21st century and wrestling has evolved or at least it started to in the early 1990's and slowed in the mid 00's before almost stopping in the 10's. The only way new stars will be made is if WWE creative diverts their attention from John Cena, gets over the muscle fixation and takes a more compromising stance when it comes to rising talent.

 

[tomalak301]

Back to the glaring difference between stars of yesterday and today, who on the roster is the next Stone Cold or Rock? Who is the next Undertaker? There must be some incredible talent down the pipe and they need to find a way to make that next star? It almost feels like WWE is holding on to the past way too much, while still having a certain PG era, which makes it like a "Have your cake and eat it too" moment. They can do fun stuff under the PG guidelines (As stated, the Nexus or last year's angle with Punk being examples) but that takes development. I don't think that's happening at the moment and that's a shame.

Well obviously nobody can "just replace" Stone Cold, The Rock or Undertaker, but I do see what you are saying.

Of course you can't replace Stone Cold, nor should they try. My argument is more, who can reach the levels of Stone Cold, be the face of WWE and really get the company into a new era. Stone Cold and Undertaker started out as nobodys, and they became legends. Who is that nobody who will become legendary in 5 years time. Maybe Cena, but the problem with Cena is he's been the same character for so long that it just feels stale. I'm not advocating a heel turn or anything, but a surprise here or there every now and then doesn't hurt.

 

[Admiral_Young]

John Cena, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan are arguably the current faces of the WWE, with Punk and Cena vying each other for top star spot with Bryan behind them. Cena is basically the current "Hulk Hogan" right now for WWE. Cena even brought that up himself in that one great promo when Vince tried to fire him during the Punk saga. For whatever reason, John has been their safety net good or bad. I give them a ton of credit for riding Punk right now as WWE Champion. He's probably been the most over face champion the company has had in quite some time. I foresee this heel turn as probably the equivalent of one of Austin's heel turns, since we've compared Punk's anti-hero character to Austin before.

WWE has attempted to turn John heel several times and it's back fired in their faces because of the fandom's divisiveness over him. I mean they even used the Rock to try and do this and it didn't happen. It's a phenom that is quite hard to explain really.

 

[Mr Silver]

WWE has attempted to turn John heel several times and it's back fired in their faces because of the fandom's divisiveness over him. I mean they even used the Rock to try and do this and it didn't happen. It's a phenom that is quite hard to explain really.

No, they've never tried nor attempted to turn Cena heel. WWE is incredibly protective of Cena and his characterisation as a good guy and is constantly trying to encourage the fanbase to cheer for Cena rather than fully embracing the divisiveness (as you pointed out) and focusing on the opportunities that a unique character like that can provide.

WWE actually hates the constant divisiveness and resorts to pointless measures such as modifying the crowd reactions for Cena for pre-recorded broadcasts and promos. The commentators are sometimes forbidden from acknowledging the dominant negative reactions emanating from the audience and are sometimes even instructed to make shit up about what the audience are saying - eg, claiming that the crowd are cheering for Cena where they are clearly cheering for the other guy.

It's not about turning him heel at this juncture, it's about taking risks when writing for the character and allowing him to be more than just a one-dimensional good guy that always overcomes the odds and never grows as a character.

There are 3 reasons that pretty much rule out a John Cena heel turn at this stage:

1) His work with the Make-A-Wish foundation.
2) The merchandise opportunities that are dependent on his present characterisation - which makes WWE a hell of a lot of money.
3) The absence of anybody in the company who could succeed Cena in the above two roles, whilst he is portraying a heel character.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I respectfully disagree with you that they haven't attempted to turn John heel. We discussed already in the original thread how lame it was to use a returning Kane to do that with the whole embrace the hate program. I do agree with you that they've been overly protective of Cena and attempt to manipulate the crowds, which is never a good idea. I also agree with you that we're never going to get a heel turn due to the reasons you gave and a major repackaging of Cena is near impossible now. As for "taking risks" well...that rarely has happened with creative as of late. The Kane program was arguably a calculated risk and as you and others know, I was highly critical of that program as I believe it did absolutely NOTHING for either men and was pretty pointless.

Anyways. We have what we have in this current era of the WWE. It's not really going to change any soon. They've had opportunities in the past to grasp hold of fleeting moments of momentum but have always dropped the ball. I'm really concerned about the three hour format. I think this is going to back fire for them. As I've mentioned in the past they have been highly critical of WCW going three hours and in numerous of their round table discussions have pointed it out as a reason why they failed. I can't see WWE doing it better. They could barely program 2 hours IHMO. We'll see though how this goes.

 

[Admiral_Young]

This is actually pretty awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ii2gt0yJcE&feature=player_embedded

 

[Mr Silver]

Earl Hebner has dug a hole and buried himself in it.

An interesting read regarding where the McMahon-Limo explosion storyline was going.

Kevin Nash is also teasing things on Twitter such as reforming the NWO with CM Punk as leader. I think this is Nash's way of telling us that he wants one more run and that he wants to/thinks he deserves to work with the hottest star in American professional wrestling.