General Order Number One

[FormerLurker]

... the Yangs still overran the Kohms. Captain Kirk then told the Yangs they should in fact worship tolerance and equality, but that again changed nothing because there was nobody left to tolerate or treat equally.

Only in the Yang places. Cloud William stated rather definitively "What was ours, is ours again." He said nothing about traversing the globe, exterminating the Kohms everywhere they could be found. By process of elimination, the Yangs therefore didn't do that. Indeed, it's safe to assume that was the writer's intent. "They took our lands. We took them back." Simple.

 

[Drone]

The stipulation isn't for warp-capable societies, it's for societies that have no clue they aren't alone in the Universe. If a planet knows about the interstellar community regardless of their tech level then contact is permitted. Most of the low-tech worlds visited in TOS were already aware of life on other worlds (either because Klingons contacted them, or pre-PD Feds did, or other aliens) so the Feds could go in.

In fact a few worlds in early TNG didn't seem to be warp capable (The Edo, for example) but already knew about aliens so contact was fine.

The Malcorians from "First Contact" thought they were alone but were on the verge of Warp Drive. So the Feds figured they should make contact then and there because now it was inevitable.

What would the established mechanism be that the Federation would employ to be certain that a planet's inhabitants had no idea of intelligent life anywhere else? Monitoring of communications or stealthy information gathering visits that they could be certain would not be detected? It would seem that any such determination would be hard pressed to determine say, that some limited members of the society's scientific community may have posited credible theoretical indications of life elsewhere which may have been unknown to the vast majority of the general population and dismissed by those who were aware of it.

Would the salient factor in the Federation's calculus in such a case be that awareness of such cognizance had to be abroad throughout the general population or by the ruling governmental structure to be valid and that the plausible musings of just a limited number of individuals, whether using the scientific method or not, would not meet the threshold that would warrant contact?

 

[Timo]

He said nothing about traversing the globe, exterminating the Kohms everywhere they could be found. By process of elimination, the Yangs therefore didn't do that.

Oh, no - it's clear that this was the very last Kohm village on the entire planet. Any other alternative would require a string of incredible coincidences.

Why would Tracey beam down to this specific village if he actually had a choice? Why would Kirk beam there when he has zero sensor readings on the whereabouts of Tracey and his crew? The village is also known by the name of "the planet's surface"!

Why is this the last village to be conquered? Tracey only influenced six months of campaigning for this horde moving on foot. This wouldn't re-center a wider campaign on the holdout village yet: the centering must have been there already.

Why is Tracey at the village? It offers him no protection separate from his phaser firepower. He believes the youth cure to be global, not a local phenomenon (or one limited to the Kohms only). This belief appears to be based solely on interviews of the locals, interviews of global scope.

Cloud William stated rather definitively "What was ours, is ours again."

And Cloud William was a genocidal savage. For all we know, his folks were the ones who originally bombed the place back to stone age. I'd not only hesitate to give global custodianship to him, I'd doubt his every word - which is what Kirk literally does, too, which is why he triumphs/survives at the end. On the other hand, Kirk is declared a "romantic" already for initially believing Cloud William...

What the writer probably intended was for the audience not to equate the US flag with that of the Nazi Germany, or the worship word "freedom" with the worship word "Lebensraum". Well, that was one spectacular fail. Any further "intent" is best forgotten, too!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

It would seem that any such determination would be hard pressed to determine say, that some limited members of the society's scientific community may have posited credible theoretical indications of life elsewhere which may have been unknown to the vast majority of the general population and dismissed by those who were aware of it.

I doubt such a state of affairs would matter. It existed on the pseudo-Roman planet when Kirk left, and he thought everything was fine at the conclusion of "Bread and Circuses". It existed on Earth at various points of time before 2063, and Cadet Nog still thought he was upholding the Prime Directive when leaving Earth one bit further aware of aliens in "Little Green Men". Kirk revealed his true identity and allegiance to individual natives rather casually (or perhaps was forced by circumstances, but nevertheless regarded this rather casually afterwards) in various TOS episodes yet appeared to avoid global consequences.

If space aliens aren't on global news, then the UFP wants to avoid putting them there. The secret cabinets of cigarette-smoking and well-manicured men can believe what they wish (down to and including their personal alien advisors and contacts).

Why is this? It could be argued that the Prime Directive protects the cultural contribution a given world can make to the galactic whole when contact finally happens: individuality is lost more or less at the moment of contact, so contribution comes from the preceding existence exclusively, and this should thus be prolonged. But the contribution doesn't come from the leadership - it comes from the individuals making up the culture. And as long as the majority remains unspoiled by things like access to the UFP Encyclopedia or domestic replicators, it keeps on contributing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

...Such as the Malcorians of "First Contact", apparently.
Timo Saloniemi

In my opinion, the Malcorians are no such example. As far as we know, they showed no indication of staying on their home planet and not venturing out if they would have warp drive (and hence remaining unaware of the interstellar community), but of reacting negatively (or suffering a severe impact on their culture, take your pick) once they would find out they weren't alone in the universe.

So the initial approach of the Federation was still to proceed to make contact (and after considering the ramifications, their president made the decision to abort the warp program altogether for the time being, to avoid contact, not the Federation).

 

[Anwar]

What would the established mechanism be that the Federation would employ to be certain that a planet's inhabitants had no idea of intelligent life anywhere else?

They'd do the covert observations we saw them do in First Contact, and once they'd determined that they populace did or didn't know about the interstellar community then they'd decide whether they would soon or not.

 

[hux]

But they didn't do that with the Edo. They weren't even aware of their basic laws regarding ball games never mind if they were aware of intergalactic life. I see no evidence that they covertly investigate a planet before exploring it at all. Which is why I always assumed they simply avoided contact with any pre-warp civilisation. If that isn't the case as people are suggesting then Drone's query needs further thought.

 

[Anwar]

Was the visit in "Justice" supposed to be the very first time anyone ever met the Edo?

It could just be that whoever did the first observations and declared them safe to visit just did a really lousy job when it came to learning their local laws and stuff.

After all, the Feds have been shown to be so lax when it comes to their Observers they didn't pick up on how John Gill was a Neo-Nazi.

 

[vulcan redshirt]

A number of the civilisations in TNG, one does wonder whether they have warp / subspace capabilities hence are worthy of being contacted by the Federation.

One would have to assume therefore that either these species do have advanced spaceflight, just that we don't see it, or they have been previously contacted / contaminated by other races not bound by the PD, hence their existence is known and the population are aware of other advanced races.

The Edo are a strange one, where the population have no concern that off-worlders are present (except when the incident happens), but the Edo female is somewhat overawed by being taken on board the E-D / into space, which would indicate that space travel may be unusual for them. Maybe the Edo 'God', whoever or whatever it actually was had something to do with it.

 

[MacLeod]

If the Federation says "We don't go there" it's safe to assume they mean everyone. Thus, if a private organization goes in and (presumably ruthlessly) exploits the locals for their resources, the Federation has Starfleet move in and just as ruthlessly removes the organization and prosecutes its executives and all employees who were willful participants in the exploitation. Meanwhile, some branch of Federation Psychological (whatever) goes in to do damage control, and at least attempts to put the locals back on a reasonable track for social evolution.

Well from TSFS we have these

Mutara restricted. Take permits many.

Genesis allowed is not... Is planet forbidden.

So Starfleet/The Federation seemingly will restrict access to planets/system

 

[Timo]

As far as we know, they showed no indication of staying on their home planet and not venturing out if they would have warp drive (and hence remaining unaware of the interstellar community), but of reacting negatively (or suffering a severe impact on their culture, take your pick) once they would find out they weren't alone in the universe.

Yup - I meant Malcorians at the conclusion of the episode, with the leadership finally agreeing that stalling with contact would be in their national interests.

That state of affairs would remain as long as that particular leadership remained in office, and perhaps perpetuated by the following ones. Or then rudely cut by outside interference. But from the UFP point of view, the Malcorians would be a society disinterested in contact despite theoretically possessing warp, and posing political and monitoring problems specific to that setup.

But they didn't do that with the Edo. They weren't even aware of their basic laws regarding ball games

But they were - Yar did study the laws and was explicit that they were pretty standard (no doubt also including "don't step on the lawn, at least not in a way that creates lots of shrapnel"). What she missed was the chapter on punishments, apparently unwritten.

Observation would not have revealed such things any time soon, as people on the planet just plain obeyed the laws (or got lucky with the punishment zone thing) and the death penalty for jaywalking never would have become an issue in evidence.

I see no evidence that they covertly investigate a planet before exploring it at all.

Not within the confines of the episode, no. They interact with the society openly and directly. But they could do so if the planet had been previously investigated - and since they were founding a colony next door, odds are actually high that such investigation did take place. And it, too, would have missed the death penalty thing because of the extremely low statistical odds of spotting it in action.

Which is why I always assumed they simply avoided contact with any pre-warp civilisation.

In TOS, they clearly didn't. When they bargained for resources, there might have been long history of interaction, and all sorts of stories of early "avoidance" and later "pressing circumstances" or whatever. But we also saw episodes where the heroes simply waltzed in on worlds not previously contacted, on missions we could call "aggressive recce". These inevitably led to contact, but they could still have been Kirk's ham-fisted version of "covert preliminary investigation".

The TNG setup of the PD not applying to non-Starfleeters is actually the most consistent scenario: all sorts of pre-warp, pre-radio, even pre-fire cultures could and would come under alien interference, Starfleet having no resources to stop that from happening, and the Feds would deal with that the best they can. But the PD would keep the Federation's most dangerous individuals, starship commanders, from becoming fearsome criminals dabbling in interstellar evil...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

As far as we know, they showed no indication of staying on their home planet and not venturing out if they would have warp drive (and hence remaining unaware of the interstellar community), but of reacting negatively (or suffering a severe impact on their culture, take your pick) once they would find out they weren't alone in the universe.

Yup - I meant Malcorians at the conclusion of the episode, with the leadership finally agreeing that stalling with contact would be in their national interests.

That state of affairs would remain as long as that particular leadership remained in office, and perhaps perpetuated by the following ones. Or then rudely cut by outside interference. But from the UFP point of view, the Malcorians would be a society disinterested in contact despite theoretically possessing warp, and posing political and monitoring problems specific to that setup.

Timo Saloniemi

Ah, I get your point. I guess it's a matter of perspective. As I see it, the Malcorians were contacted by the Feds -even if only at the very highest level of govenment- after which 'the government' (i.e. the president) decided not to pursue contacts. So it was a Malcorian decision that was respected by the Feds.

In my book, that would still be different from a society that theoretically has warp capability, but is not contacted at all (because the Feds believe they won't be using it anytime soon for whatever reason), so that the non-interference decision would essentially be the Federation's, not of the (non-contacted) species.

 

[hux]

But they were - Yar did study the laws and was explicit that they were pretty standard (no doubt also including "don't step on the lawn, at least not in a way that creates lots of shrapnel"). What she missed was the chapter on punishments, apparently unwritten.

The fact that they don't know that "keep off the grass" may result in death is not exactly being aware of their laws. Secondly, Riker and Yar have only come to these conclusions based on a short initial visit. There was no covert investigation; they just popped down and got some basics which again makes one wonder... how did they know these people were even aware of space travel and alien life before they met them? Where, when and how did they get that information?

Shouldn't Yar be reprimanded for her piss poor report?

TASHA: I've listed my report on their customs and laws, sir. Fairly simple, common sense things.

It never occurred to her to ask... "and if one breaks these laws, what happens?"

 

[Timo]

The fact that they don't know that "keep off the grass" may result in death is not exactly being aware of their laws.

But it's not particularly relevant to this "observation" or "being familiar with" thing. Riker could have lived with the Edo for ten years before learning of the death penalty - after all, it would only become relevant in those supposedly rare situations where somebody broke a law and this happened while the location was a punishment zone. (The big question is, why was there a zone there when Wes fumbled and tumbled? And why none when the rest of the heroes intervened? Were the supposed random rules of zoning observed, or were the Edo cheating?)

Now, if Riker had fifty kids with the locals, the mothers might at some point mention to the kids that the society has this single punishment against breaking the law. Then again, they might not: telling about the law itself, i.e. what was allowed and what was forbidden, ought to suffice.

Where, when and how did they get that information?

Do we need to know? The UFP had decided to found a colony in this system; the default assumption would be that there had been plenty of advance scouting.

Nowhere in the episode is it suggested the Edo would be a pre-contact civilization. They are somewhat anti-spaceflight (few if any have been offworld), but that doesn't even establish them as pre-warp, really.

It never occurred to her to ask... "and if one breaks these laws, what happens?"

I don't see why that should be particularly important. The heroes want to avoid breaking laws, and for that only the do/don't content of those laws is relevant.

If conflict does arise, there's actually very little chance that the heroes would agree to be punished by local rules! That is, they may pay fines, but if one of them gets sentenced to ten years in jail, they simply say "No can do, how about we give you two tons of diamonds and agree not to come here again?". And if the answer is "No, absolutely not! Respect our laws!", they say "Too bad, no diamonds for you. Chief, beam our friend up!"; after all, that's what actually happened in the episode.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[hux]

But it's not particularly relevant to this "observation" or "being familiar with" thing. Riker could have lived with the Edo for ten years before learning of the death penalty - after all, it would only become relevant in those supposedly rare situations where somebody broke a law and this happened while the location was a punishment zone. (The big question is, why was there a zone there when Wes fumbled and tumbled? And why none when the rest of the heroes intervened? Were the supposed random rules of zoning observed, or were the Edo cheating?)

Now, if Riker had fifty kids with the locals, the mothers might at some point mention to the kids that the society has this single punishment against breaking the law. Then again, they might not: telling about the law itself, i.e. what was allowed and what was forbidden, ought to suffice.

That doesn't make any sense. If I travel to America, I am aware that the police have guns, many of the civilian population too. I'm aware that they have a death penalty. I'm aware that conservatism is extremely prevalent. This awareness requires no effort because I have some familiarity with America. If I had absolutely no familiarity with America at all, I would be far more cautious about going and make sure that I was prepared and informed as much as possible about a different culture.

Yar claims to know that the laws are pretty basic but hasn't even investigated the punishments. When your job is to explore a society's culture and laws, you would be idiotic not to include the punishments and the cultural no-no's in that exploration. It seems clear that no serious, in-depth investigation has occurred at all in this instance.

Do we need to know? The UFP had decided to found a colony in this system; the default assumption would be that there had been plenty of advance scouting.

Nowhere in the episode is it suggested the Edo would be a pre-contact civilization. They are somewhat anti-spaceflight (few if any have been offworld), but that doesn't even establish them as pre-warp, really.

If we are to believe that Stafleet doesn't pursue relations with aliens who are ignorant of alien life then yes, I think we probably do need to know how they determine that. It seems clear that the Edo have not reached out to Starfleet so the only alternative is that Starfleet have monitored and investigated the planet covertly. "Justice" however, would seem to indicate that no such covert action was undertaken and they simply chose to land on the planet and say hello. Had there been covert investigations, I find it entirely unconvincing that they wouldn't be aware of the death penalty for all crimes.

I don't see why that should be particularly important. The heroes want to avoid breaking laws, and for that only the do/don't content of those laws is relevant.

If conflict does arise, there's actually very little chance that the heroes would agree to be punished by local rules! That is, they may pay fines, but if one of them gets sentenced to ten years in jail, they simply say "No can do, how about we give you two tons of diamonds and agree not to come here again?". And if the answer is "No, absolutely not! Respect our laws!", they say "Too bad, no diamonds for you. Chief, beam our friend up!"; after all, that's what actually happened in the episode.

So you're saying that Starfleet travels around the Galaxy, ignorant of cultures and laws and has no real interest in learning about or respecting them if they should turn out to be unpalatable or contradictory to Federation values?

Would that not suggest that general order number one is massively irrelevant to them.

 

[Timo]

If I travel to America, I am aware that the police have guns, many of the civilian population too. I'm aware that they have a death penalty. I'm aware that conservatism is extremely prevalent. This awareness requires no effort because I have some familiarity with America. If I had absolutely no familiarity with America at all, I would be far more cautious about going and make sure that I was prepared and informed as much as possible about a different culture.

But you are not going to America. You are going to Nothingstan, traveling with the US Army, and visiting the local restaurant with an assault rifle slung over your shoulder and with a hotline to close air support units in your pocket in case the soup is too salty.

Starfleet has no a priori reason to respect local laws, let alone be afraid of consequences. They do that out of down-their-noses kindness only. When they bother. And this very seldom happens in any of their episodes.

When your job is to explore a society's culture and laws, you would be idiotic not to include the punishments and the cultural no-no's in that exploration.

To the contrary, it would be pretty idiotic to explore a society's laws in the first place, for the mere purpose of visiting. Nobody does that in the real world, except perhaps some geeks for a hobby. "In-depth investigation" is for idle scientific curiosity, and not a prerequisite for casual visits.

The real catch here is that the Edo didn't appear alien at all. Their ways of thinking were in line with the human norm so prevalent in the Star Trek universe. Except for this tiny little aberration...

Now, if we started from the premise that Picard's team was making first contact, idle study might be part of the mission. But that's not indicated at all. It's not Yar's job to uncover supposedly unwritten local idiosyncracies when somebody else should have done that already.

So you're saying that Starfleet travels around the Galaxy, ignorant of cultures and laws and has no real interest in learning about or respecting them if they should turn out to be unpalatable or contradictory to Federation values?

That's what we see in the shows. The mission comes first. Personal safety comes second. Specialists study special fields, but people like Kirk or Riker have much better things to do.

Would that not suggest that general order number one is massively irrelevant to them.

It generally is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[hux]

But you are not going to America. You are going to Nothingstan, traveling with the US Army, and visiting the local restaurant with an assault rifle slung over your shoulder and with a hotline to close air support units in your pocket in case the soup is too salty.

Starfleet has no a priori reason to respect local laws, let alone be afraid of consequences. They do that out of down-their-noses kindness only. When they bother. And this very seldom happens in any of their episodes.

Well that's a depressing thought. You've reduced an open minded, bettering themselves, bunch of explorers to an ignorant, military group of smug, do-whatever-we-like space-dicks.

To the contrary, it would be pretty idiotic to explore a society's laws in the first place, for the mere purpose of visiting. Nobody does that in the real world, except perhaps some geeks for a hobby. "In-depth investigation" is for idle scientific curiosity, and not a prerequisite for casual visits.

Nobody in the real world ever visits somewhere they know absolutely nothing about as part of their professional objective. You would assume that Starfleet have a more enlightened view of exploring space and contact with alien cultures. I always assumed that general order number one was evidence of that.

That's what we see in the shows. The mission comes first. Personal safety comes second. Specialists study special fields, but people like Kirk or Riker have much better things to do.

I agree that they blunder their way though the universe and don't appear to be especially concerned with who they screw in the process but I would say their respect for the cultures and laws of other alien societies is taken more seriously than you seem to be suggesting.

 

[Anwar]

Well that's a depressing thought. You've reduced an open minded, bettering themselves, bunch of explorers to an ignorant, military group of smug, do-whatever-we-like space-dicks.

Well, this has been happening since TOS...

 

[Kor]

To the contrary, it would be pretty idiotic to explore a society's laws in the first place, for the mere purpose of visiting. Nobody does that in the real world, except perhaps some geeks for a hobby. "In-depth investigation" is for idle scientific curiosity, and not a prerequisite for casual visits.

The real catch here is that the Edo didn't appear alien at all. Their ways of thinking were in line with the human norm so prevalent in the Star Trek universe. Except for this tiny little aberration...

Maybe everyday civilians don't deeply study the laws of countries they are visiting, but it makes sense to at least try to spot any red flags or areas for extra caution, like making sure I don't accidentally do something which might be very trivial where I live, but end up taken to jail and whipped repeatedly with a cane... which is a real law right here on Earth, by the way.

Alien civilizations (even ones that look just like humans) would undoubtedly have laws that are even more different, unexpected, and even bizarre and inexplicable by human standards. What we think is "just common sense" goes out the window.

Now, if we started from the premise that Picard's team was making first contact, idle study might be part of the mission. But that's not indicated at all. It's not Yar's job to uncover supposedly unwritten local idiosyncracies when somebody else should have done that already.

Per the captain's log at the beginning of the episode, this definitely was first contact between the Edo and the Federation (quoted from Memory Alpha):

Captain's log, Stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship.

So for officers in a space navy visiting a planet for the very first time, it would certainly be prudent to do some more in-depth research and have briefings with the staff about what they can and can't do within that jurisdiction, before sending everybody there on shore leave.

Kor

 

[Anwar]

I'm assuming that The Edo had some way of contacting them to say "Yeah we know you're up there, why not come on down?" or Picard had some way of figuring out the Edo knew what was out there so there was no contamination.