General Order Number One

[T'Girl]

Angel One was not in Federation space.

I believe Picard said that Starfleet would like Angel to join the Federation, that combined with the freighter being able to reach it suggesting that Angel is near the Federation, perhaps (while not in it) enclosed by it.

In terms of territory, would a primitive planet be "in" Federation space, or exist in it's own bubble of "outside" the Federation?

 

[at Quark's]

Although ... suppose an ancient colony of Vulcans was discovered that had descended to, say, the bronze age. (e.g. like the Mintakans, but clearly non-native in this case)... would the PD apply to such groups, too?

It would appear that ST:INS was based on the premise that the UFP Council would take a look at an obvious interstellar colonization party that has gone native and declare it exempt of PD protection exactly because they were not primitives.

The definition of "primitive" in practice being "not aware of the interstellar community (any more) and thus not being influenced by it". The Ba'ku clearly were aware and could not be "spoiled" by interference. After that, things would have to move beyond the scope of the PD and into more complex legislation concerning settlement rights and UFP powers.

Timo Saloniemi

I was thinking of a colony that really lost all such knowledge (and not just 'renounced it in everyday life', as the Ba'ku did). From what you write above, I'd gather the PD would be in force regarding interference with that group?

 

[Timo]

I can't see how total, sterile "noninterference" could be relevant for a culture that is already aware of the interstellar community, so from that angle, a version of the Ba'ku that had forgotten about space aliens would certainly warrant PD protection but the Ba'ku we saw rightly did not. I gather the duck blind mission in ST:INS was there solely to establish that specific truth about the natives - the Son'a wouldn't have revealed to the UFP outright that they knew the Ba'ku were "non-primitives", because that would have looked too suspicious.

However, the PD is brought up even when a culture does know about aliens: in "Bread and Circuses", the cat was already out of the bag as regards the leadership of that planet, and in the TNG/DS9 era the rule governs interstellar politics with entities like Bajor or the Klingon Empire. So our heroes seem to err on the side of caution.

Yet we hear the PD can be in "full" force, meaning it probably can be in other sorts of force, too. The lost colony might come under any so far unheard special clause if that benefits the storytelling...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

I think the "duck blind" was there solely to to get the hologram in the holoship correct. Map the village down to the smallest detail.

In the case of Bread and Circuses, the culture didn't know, only (my impression) a few people, or perhaps just one.

 

[Anwar]

The Prime Directive applies to Starfleet personnel, not all people within the Federation. The guys on Angel One were explicitly stated to not be beholden to the PD.

So in this situation, the Feds can come in a question what's being done but legally they can't say it's a PD violation since it was a Private Group that did it.

 

[FormerLurker]

I think the "duck blind" was there solely to to get the hologram in the holoship correct. Map the village down to the smallest detail.

This was my impression as well. The Federation had been lied to by the Son'a about the "indigenous people" so they could remove them without a lot of fuss, and either collect the particles as promised, or just destroy the rings, and the fact that they generated the particles in the first place, taking away from the Ba'ku what made their chosen world special.

 

[T'Girl]

The Federation had been lied to by the Son'a about the "indigenous people" so they could remove them without a lot of fuss

Other than being ignorant about the connection between the Sona and the Baku, my impression is that the Federation Council knew exactly what was going on with the Baku. The Council never thought the Baku were indigenous people.

Only Picard and his officers were briefly mistaken as to that, which was an assumption on their parts.

 

[Timo]

It would cast the Council in poor light if they really believed the Ba'ku were indigenous - it just isn't plausible for a planet to support one isolated village of people at comfortable iron age level, and then no other presence of this sapient species. So I'd also like to assume everybody knew what Dougherty did: that these were colonists who had chosen this lifestyle and were not a protected culture in terms of being "virgin" to interstellar influences.

The Council may have been lied to as concerns the exact state of the colonists' abandoning of high tech. The Ba'ku we saw would probably have immediately recognized the holo-fakery, not having "regressed" enough to forget about such tech. Oh, Anij was impressed by the holovillage, but I doubt the entire population could have been kept satisfied for the entire journey. The Son'a plan all along probably was for some unfortunate accident to happen with the holoship so that all the Ba'ku would die as painfully as possible...

There would be other ways to lose such virginity, though: the Capellans in TOS weren't indicated to be colonists, but they were nevertheless contacted for their resources, apparently because they had already been contacted by others (Klingons and possibly more).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[hux]

What about a planet that is reasonably advanced and has the technology to notice all these aliens flying around in space but they don't possess warp capability themselves?

Do we still ignore them? Even if they reach out to us? For that matter, do we actively employ techniques to avoid being seen by them?

 

[Timo]

I don't think there's any evidence in Star Trek that warp technology would be a criterion in whether to contact a planet or not.

At most, we get the episode "First Contact" where obviously a planet will have to be contacted now that it's introducing its first interstellar vessels, which happen to be warp-powered. But that's simply the point past which the heroes cannot delay contact; it's not indicated they couldn't have established contact earlier on if they so wished.

This "first contact depends on warp drive" thing is purely a fan misunderstanding, on par with "Spock was the first drop of Vulcan blood in Starfleet" or "Kirk was the youngest starship commander ever".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

What about a planet that is reasonably advanced and has the technology to notice all these aliens flying around in space but they don't possess warp capability themselves?

Do we still ignore them? Even if they reach out to us? For that matter, do we actively employ techniques to avoid being seen by them?

You mean -- like earth today ?

 

[hux]

I don't think there's any evidence in Star Trek that warp technology would be a criterion in whether to contact a planet or not.

But I thought it was established that Starfleet won't pursue communications or relations with a pre-warp civilisation.

My query being... would that include when the pre-warp civilisation in question is trying to contact them?

You mean -- like earth today ?

Pretty much.

 

[uniderth]

All pre-warp star systems are surrounded by a Fermi Bubble to prevent them from receiving transmissions from the interstellar community.

 

[Timo]

But I thought it was established that Starfleet won't pursue communications or relations with a pre-warp civilisation.

I don't think so. We have seen pre-warp civilizations contacted in TOS with nary a mention. We have seen civilizations contacted in TOS and TNG alike long after they attained warp. We have seen civilizations contacted in TNG around the time they attain warp. The actual act of attaining warp drive has not been specified as significant to whether or not to make contact, though - except in the TNG "First Contact" sense that once warp is discovered, contact will inevitably happen, so the UFP wants dibs on it and prepares the ground for it with espionage missions and the like.

What episodes like "Pen Pals" establish is that the UFP or Starfleet don't want to reveal the existence of space aliens to folks who don't know yet. How the "Pen Pals" planet managed to avoid discovering aliens when they had a FTL communications system in operation, I don't know. Or then they had classic radio, but somehow the hardware at Data's end was able to interface with it at FTL anyway...

As for Fermi Bubbles, those could be a natural phenomenon that can only be pierced by subspace communications systems, and will not just deflect all radio waves but also dim the stars and nebulae so that only people looking through the windows of interstellar starships see them in all their "unrealistically" bright and colorful glory!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[IndyMac]

... we just don't see the Romulans mining the shit out of a planet as the local cave men sit and watch in confusion?

Remus.

But aren't the Remuns (whatever they're called) warp-aware if not warp capable?

Ultimately, this will probably boil down to jurisdiction (and in the case of Remus, it would be hard to argue with the Romulan claim) but what about the planets outside of anyone's jurisdiction?

If Romulans started mining on a planet with a 16th century style culture outside of anyone's jurisdiction, do the Federation ignore it?

Romulus and Remus are both planets in the same star system. The were both colonized by ancient pre-warp Vulcans, the Romulans evolved on Romulus and the Remans evolved differently on Remus do to it's extreme environment.

 

[FormerLurker]

I think the "duck blind" was there solely to to get the hologram in the holoship correct. Map the village down to the smallest detail.

This was my impression as well. The Federation had been lied to by the Son'a about the "indigenous people" so they could remove them without a lot of fuss, and either collect the particles as promised, or just destroy the rings, and the fact that they generated the particles in the first place, taking away from the Ba'ku what made their chosen world special.

It would cast the Council in poor light if they really believed the Ba'ku were indigenous - it just isn't plausible for a planet to support one isolated village of people at comfortable iron age level, and then no other presence of this sapient species. So I'd also like to assume everybody knew what Dougherty did: that these were colonists who had chosen this lifestyle and were not a protected culture in terms of being "virgin" to interstellar influences.

The Council may have been lied to as concerns the exact state of the colonists' abandoning of high tech. The Ba'ku we saw would probably have immediately recognized the holo-fakery, not having "regressed" enough to forget about such tech. Oh, Anij was impressed by the holovillage, but I doubt the entire population could have been kept satisfied for the entire journey. The Son'a plan all along probably was for some unfortunate accident to happen with the holoship so that all the Ba'ku would die as painfully as possible...

There would be other ways to lose such virginity, though: the Capellans in TOS weren't indicated to be colonists, but they were nevertheless contacted for their resources, apparently because they had already been contacted by others (Klingons and possibly more).

Timo Saloniemi

As this is all speculation, I will identify it as such:

Would the Federation council really assume the Ba'ku are colonists who've chosen an iron age lifestyle though? We've seen as far back as TOS that the Federation knows about worlds the Preservers have populated with species indigenous to other planets, for the purpose of, well, preserving them. It's just as plausible the council was snowed into believing this was such a case, and went along with Dougherty's decision to work with the Son'a to move them elsewhere. As I've argued elsewhere, once the Federation council learns the truth about not only the Ba'ku's origins, but their capabilities, a whole new can of worms opens up regarding who has dominion over the planet, and who doesn't, and why.

 

[Timo]

That's a good point. The Ba'ku could be the victims of a recent transplantation (they couldn't support that level of metallurgy from their lone village for any appreciable number of generations), by well-meaning Preservers or exploitative Skagarrans or whatnot. And getting them out of there would be an act of mercy on top of serving UFP interests. Although if there was that cherry on top of the icing of that particular cake, I trust Dougherty would have brought it up.

Romulus and Remus are both planets in the same star system. The were both colonized by ancient pre-warp Vulcans, the Romulans evolved on Romulus and the Remans evolved differently on Remus do to it's extreme environment.

This is one possible model. In another, ancient Vulcans already had potent warp drives, and were in contact with a great number of alien species, before the Romulans left. And Remus may or may not have supported native life originally (I'd rather that it did not, given the tidal lock and all), and the Reman slaves may have been native or imported by Romulans or descended from Romulans or none of the above.

The onscreen adventures simply don't tell. And even if they did drop hints, these could be filthy lies, as so many "facts" about Vulcans and their history have proved out to be in recent (that is, ENT) episodes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

The stipulation isn't for warp-capable societies, it's for societies that have no clue they aren't alone in the Universe. If a planet knows about the interstellar community regardless of their tech level then contact is permitted. Most of the low-tech worlds visited in TOS were already aware of life on other worlds (either because Klingons contacted them, or pre-PD Feds did, or other aliens) so the Feds could go in.

In fact a few worlds in early TNG didn't seem to be warp capable (The Edo, for example) but already knew about aliens so contact was fine.

The Malcorians from "First Contact" thought they were alone but were on the verge of Warp Drive. So the Feds figured they should make contact then and there because now it was inevitable.

 

[at Quark's]

I agree. As said in "First Contact", it's just that once a species acquires warp drive, it's highly likely there will be contact sooner or later -- even if by a random encounter in deep space, so then the Fed prefers to initiate contact themselves as the most pragmatic course of action. But it's not as if warp drive is seen as any intrinsic sign of sufficient development for contact.

So I doubt the Fed would initiate first contact with a hypothetical species that had warp technology in principle but showed strong counterindications to the posibility of leaving their homeworld anytime soon (say because of ideology)...

 

[Timo]

...Such as the Malcorians of "First Contact", apparently.

How does a culture remain unaware of alien life, in a universe where interstellar travel is not just commonplace but dirt cheap? Easily enough, it seems. Malcorians and Earthlings ("Little Green Men" or "Future's End", say) are good examples of the contacted people profiting from not spreading the news; there's no real need to keep each and every adventurer away from primitive planets. Even "Bread and Circuses" shows a society that was not necessarily adversely affected by the argued "meddling" of an Earthman: Merrick made no real difference despite accessing the very highest levels of that society.

What's the worst a loner could achieve? Captain Tracey killed legions of natives, but changed not one iota of the future of that planet: the Yangs still overran the Kohms. Captain Kirk then told the Yangs they should in fact worship tolerance and equality, but that again changed nothing because there was nobody left to tolerate or treat equally.

Really, "influencing" is vastly overrated judging by what we have seen so far. It's nigh impossible to find a single case where a difference of any lasting significance would have been made by a meddler. The one example with actual global effects, "Friendship One", related to an automaton...

Timo Saloniemi