Spoilers General Disco Chat Thread

[Grendelsbayne]

Where does the idea that no one ever heard the name of Section 31 before on DS9 come from? Ross seemed to know who they were. Or am I the only one who saw "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"?

Section 31 seems to be on a Need To Know Basis, in both centuries.

Even if that's not the case, DSC and DS9 are 120 years apart. If someone here wants to have a discussion with me about in-depth military history in the 1890s, the finer details of the Spanish-American War, and McKinley's push to American Imperialism, then by all means. But I don't think anything beyond the broad strokes goes beyond common knowledge.

There's absolutely nothing above board about Section 31 in IAESL. The entire implication is that Ross is literally one of their agents (temporarily, anyway). It, of course, also takes place after Sisko started making official reports about this guy Sloan who claims to work for a secret Federation intelligence agency and it never even actually says whether Ross had ever heard of the organization before those reports came in or not. So yeah, obviously, Sisko's boss knew what Section 31 was after being sent reports about it and being literally recruited into it.

And there doesn't seem to be anything Need to Know about S31's existence on DSC. Not one, but two different low level officers were already familiar with the organization before Georgiou flashed her badge and the story gave no hint as to either of them having ever had any Need to Know.

 

[Lord Garth]

There's absolutely nothing above board about Section 31 in IAESL. The entire implication is that Ross is literally one of their agents (temporarily, anyway). It, of course, also takes place after Sisko started making official reports about this guy Sloan who claims to work for a secret Federation intelligence agency and it never even actually says whether Ross had ever heard of the organization before those reports came in or not. So yeah, obviously, Sisko's boss knew what Section 31 was after being sent reports about it and being literally recruited into it.

I didn't say Section 31 was Above Board, just that Ross knew about them. I thought then and now that Ross was working conjunction with them, not that he was part of them. He can work with them without being part of them.

And there doesn't seem to be anything Need to Know about S31's existence on DSC. Not one, but two different low level officers were already familiar with the organization before Georgiou flashed her badge and the story gave no hint as to either of them having ever had any Need to Know.

You can be low rank and still need to know. The rank doesn't matter, whether or not you need to know is what matters.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I didn't say Section 31 was Above Board, just that Ross knew about them. I thought then and now that Ross was working conjunction with them, not that he was part of them. He can work with them without being part of them.



You can be low rank and still need to know. The rank doesn't matter, whether or not you need to know is what matters.

And again, the story gave no indication of them ever needing to know. The story also made no effort whatsoever to 'protect' S31's secret. They casually discussed the existence of this 'Need to Know' organization in completely public places. And it also made no effort to instruct the bridge crew that the existence of that other ship that just appeared out of nowhere is 'Need to Know' and they should never discuss it with anyone.

I do not see a single indication anywhere in this episode that S31 is 'Need to Know'. Perhaps you could point one out?

 

[SJGardner]

Actually, I don't think knowledge about the existence of Section 31 is that widespread in DSC. I don't recall it being discussed by anyone outside Starfleet; the civilian prisoner who pointed out the black badges in Context is for Kings definitely seemed to have no idea what they represented. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure we saw anyone outside of Starfleet officers discussing Section 31... information about them might be restricted to the officer corps in the mid-2250s for all we know. If that information is expunged from Starfleet records after they go underground, it's entirely possible for the vast majority in the 24th century not having heard anything about them.

 

[T'Bonz]

View attachment 8285

Buzz off, old man. Pain and I are old companions. Go Freud someone else. [/Romulan]

 

[Hythlodeus]

Except we know the fashion, design and uniforms of this era of Starfleet, we've seen it directly on screens

but that is simply not true. we've seen the fashion and design of half a decade prior and a decade later on screen. THIS era DSC is set in, was undiscovered country before the show. And please don't pretend fashion and design is static and doesn't change over a span of 15 years. Drastically, even.
We went from this in 1963

to this in 1978

with this somewhere in the middle, around 1967

now please tell me how the last pic violates canon of 1967, because we already know how the second pic in 1978 looks

 

[Elephant999]

If they had made Discovery more primitive in tech than TOS, it would have been a misfire IMHO as tech has come a long way in the 50 years since TOS was made and mainstream audiences expect more.

I was too young when TOS aired and have subsequently never watched it.

There is so much talk of characters that were in TOS that should be in Discovery. However I’m not sure why. I expect it is the oft spouted Trek Canon. I’m just enjoying the series as it is. There can be no comparison.

 

[Lord Garth]

And again, the story gave no indication of them ever needing to know. The story also made no effort whatsoever to 'protect' S31's secret. They casually discussed the existence of this 'Need to Know' organization in completely public places. And it also made no effort to instruct the bridge crew that the existence of that other ship that just appeared out of nowhere is 'Need to Know' and they should never discuss it with anyone.

I do not see a single indication anywhere in this episode that S31 is 'Need to Know'. Perhaps you could point one out?

I'm speculating. That's why I said "seems to be".

If Section 31 has a use for you, they'll make you aware of them, as Sloan did to Bashir in "Inquisition". Bashir was a Lieutenant. Worf was a Lt. Commander, and if Section 31 didn't need him, they wouldn't approach him and they wouldn't approach him. Therefore Bashir, who is of lower rank, would know about Section 31 and Worf wouldn't.

Bashir went to Sisko and Sisko went to Starfleet Command. They confirmed and denied nothing. Chances are Sisko inquired and passed along until hit a wall with someone who knew but only told Sisko they'd look into it. A similar thing happened to Bashir when he was trying to find a cure for the disease Odo had in "Tacking Into the Wind". The episode reveals Odo was infected with the disease by Section 31 in the "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" two-parter and that he unknowingly spread the disease to the rest of the Founders in "Broken Link". Sisko, off-screen shortly before the end of "Inquisition" probably ran into the same wall Bashir did during "Tacking Into the Wind".

When Bashir told Sloan he'd report Section 31, Sloan said he wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If Bashir's report was part of a log that was available to Starfleet Officers with his level of Secuirty Clearance and Sloan still wouldn't lose any sleep over it, then it wasn't much concern to him if it was known by Starfleet Officers who bothered to look it up. If it was part of Sisko's log, and restricted to those with Sisko's Security Clearance and above, Sloan would be even less concerned. Section 31 would be known to anyone who would've bothered to look them up in Sisko or Bashir's logs, but if you didn't bother to look it up, you still wouldn't know even if they were in the logs. And if Sisko and Bashir didn't discuss Section 31 in their logs, then that makes what they know even less accessible.

Either way, Section 31 was part of Starfleet right from the beginning as per Sloan's claim at the end of "Inquisition", which is backed up in ENT Season 4. And Section 31, because it was part of the Charter, had to have been known by those in the Admiralty would would have familiar with the Charter. Which brings me to another point: why would any Starfleet Officers not be aware of the Charter, unless it was extreme fine print, which is possibly something Section 31 operatives are counting on. Who reads fine print? The best way to hide sometimes is right in plain sight.

Getting back to "Homefront", "Paradise Lost", and "Extreme Measures" though, the Dominion seem to be the greatest threat to the Federation in the 24th Century besides the Borg. At least that's the case that was made in "Homefront". Section 31, of course, would want to deal with this threat. And Starfleet was dealing with this threat. If Starfleet and Section 31 want to defeat the same enemy, the Dominion, and Admiral Ross has been heavily involved with the war effort, then it makes sense that Sloan and Admiral Ross would collaborate. Sisko and Garak already did the dirty work of bringing the Romulans into the war effort on the Federation's side. Section 31 took the next step in making sure an influential Senator was elevated to a position within the Romulan Senate to make sure the Romulans would stay on the Federation's even after the War ends. Starfleet can't always turn to Garak, so it makes sense that they would turn to Section 31 and, if Starfleet has done such things in the past, then it also explains why Starfleet Command approved of Sisko and Garak's plan in "In the Pale Moonlight" in the first place.

But now it's a Monday morning... and I have to get ready to do other things.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...information about them might be restricted to the officer corps in the mid-2250s for all we know. If that information is expunged from Starfleet records after they go underground, it's entirely possible for the vast majority in the 24th century not having heard anything about them.

Yes, very plausible. 100 years passed between ENT and DIS. 120 years passed between DIS and DS9. A lot could have happened during both interims.

100 years ago the United States had a secret intelligence organization known as the "Black Chamber", also known as the Cipher Bureau whose job it was to decipher codes. That organization was relatively unknown to people, and while it officially was shut down in 1929, its mission eventually morphed into the NSA of today. Same with the very secretive OSS from the WWII era. That, too, was disbanded in 1945 after the war, but its mission was eventually fulfilled by the CIA. All of the names of the members of the OSS were not officially known until 2008.

And as you indicate, there is no reason to believe that S31 is a publicly-known group in DIS, like say as well known as the CIA or MI6 or something . They could be relatively secretive in DIS but still be known some people who might have had a reason (or been in a situation) to be read in on it once before. Perhaps Pike fits that description.

Maybe they were more ultra-secretive in ENT days compared to DIS, and maybe they become even more ultra-secretive in the DS9 era, but just because they might have be "more" secretive during ENT and DS9, that does not mean they did not still have a relatively high level of secretiveness during DIS.

Having said all that, I do agree that it's silly for them to have recognizable badges and such, but if the show wants to tell me that they are a highly secretive organization with identifying badges, then I'll accept that they are a highly secretive organization -- albeit one with the silly characteristic of having identifying badges.

 

[Tuskin38]

When Georgiou shows Tyler her badge in Episode 3, he recognizes it, but only from rumours IIRC.

So neither Voq or Tyler knew about S31 directly.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Actually, I don't think knowledge about the existence of Section 31 is that widespread in DSC. I don't recall it being discussed by anyone outside Starfleet; the civilian prisoner who pointed out the black badges in Context is for Kings definitely seemed to have no idea what they represented. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure we saw anyone outside of Starfleet officers discussing Section 31... information about them might be restricted to the officer corps in the mid-2250s for all we know. If that information is expunged from Starfleet records after they go underground, it's entirely possible for the vast majority in the 24th century not having heard anything about them.

Being known inside Starfleet is still clearly far more known than anything on DS9. And while you can theoretically speculate that maybe they aren't that well known, the fact of the matter is they seem to make almost no effort to hide themselves at all. Sloan wore civilian clothes and told you upfront that Starfleet would never even confirm the existence of his entire department, let alone his personal status as an agent. Georgiou wears a starfleet uniform with a special S31 badge and literally has papers that say Section 31 she can present to an annoying Captain who gets in her way.

I'm speculating. That's why I said "seems to be".

If Section 31 has a use for you, they'll make you aware of them, as Sloan did to Bashir in "Inquisition". Bashir was a Lieutenant. Worf was a Lt. Commander, and if Section 31 didn't need him, they wouldn't approach him and they wouldn't approach him. Therefore Bashir, who is of lower rank, would know about Section 31 and Worf wouldn't.

Bashir went to Sisko and Sisko went to Starfleet Command. They confirmed and denied nothing. Chances are Sisko inquired and passed along until hit a wall with someone who knew but only told Sisko they'd look into it. A similar thing happened to Bashir when he was trying to find a cure for the disease Odo had in "Tacking Into the Wind". The episode reveals Odo was infected with the disease by Section 31 in the "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" two-parter and that he unknowingly spread the disease to the rest of the Founders in "Broken Link". Sisko, off-screen shortly before the end of "Inquisition" probably ran into the same wall Bashir did during "Tacking Into the Wind".

When Bashir told Sloan he'd report Section 31, Sloan said he wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If Bashir's report was part of a log that was available to Starfleet Officers with his level of Secuirty Clearance and Sloan still wouldn't lose any sleep over it, then it wasn't much concern to him if it was known by Starfleet Officers who bothered to look it up. If it was part of Sisko's log, and restricted to those with Sisko's Security Clearance and above, Sloan would be even less concerned. Section 31 would be known to anyone who would've bothered to look them up in Sisko or Bashir's logs, but if you didn't bother to look it up, you still wouldn't know even if they were in the logs. And if Sisko and Bashir didn't discuss Section 31 in their logs, then that makes what they know even less accessible.

Either way, Section 31 was part of Starfleet right from the beginning as per Sloan's claim at the end of "Inquisition", which is backed up in ENT Season 4. And Section 31, because it was part of the Charter, had to have been known by those in the Admiralty would would have familiar with the Charter. Which brings me to another point: why would any Starfleet Officers not be aware of the Charter, unless it was extreme fine print, which is possibly something Section 31 operatives are counting on. Who reads fine print? The best way to hide sometimes is right in plain sight.

Getting back to "Homefront", "Paradise Lost", and "Extreme Measures" though, the Dominion seem to be the greatest threat to the Federation in the 24th Century besides the Borg. At least that's the case that was made in "Homefront". Section 31, of course, would want to deal with this threat. And Starfleet was dealing with this threat. If Starfleet and Section 31 want to defeat the same enemy, the Dominion, and Admiral Ross has been heavily involved with the war effort, then it makes sense that Sloan and Admiral Ross would collaborate. Sisko and Garak already did the dirty work of bringing the Romulans into the war effort on the Federation's side. Section 31 took the next step in making sure an influential Senator was elevated to a position within the Romulan Senate to make sure the Romulans would stay on the Federation's even after the War ends. Starfleet can't always turn to Garak, so it makes sense that they would turn to Section 31 and, if Starfleet has done such things in the past, then it also explains why Starfleet Command approved of Sisko and Garak's plan in "In the Pale Moonlight" in the first place.

But now it's a Monday morning... and I have to get ready to do other things.

I have no problem with Ross knowing about them and working with them (narratively speaking). My only point regarding Ross was that his knowledge of them is irrelevant to any discussion of how well known they are because we have no idea when or how he learned of them and it's entirely possible he learned exactly the same way Sisko did, by hearing about Bashir's experience with Sloan.

And the claim that they're part of the Federation Charter and must be well known is dubious at best, considering the reaction that claim received. I never got the impression Sisko and Bashir were unfamiliar with the charter, but rather that the article under discussion was written in a way that it could theoretically be called justification for S31 but that that was not the most obvious interpretation.

Yes, very plausible. 100 years passed between ENT and DIS. 120 years passed between DIS and DS9. A lot could have happened during both interims.

100 years ago the United States had a secret intelligence organization known as the "Black Chamber", also known as the Cipher Bureau whose job it was to decipher codes. That organization was relatively unknown to people, and while it officially was shut down in 1929, its mission eventually morphed into the NSA of today. Same with the very secretive OSS from the WWII era. That, too, was disbanded in 1945 after the war, but its mission was eventually fulfilled by the CIA. All of the names of the members of the OSS were not officially known until 2008.

And as you indicate, there is no reason to believe that S31 is a publicly-known group in DIS, like say as well known as the CIA or MI6 or something . They could be relatively secretive in DIS but still be known some people who might have had a reason (or been in a situation) to be read in on it once before. Perhaps Pike fits that description.

And Burnham. And after this episode, the entire Discovery (even before they needed to rescue anyone, they were tossing liaisons and id cards around and speaking openly about the department with no concern for who is listening). Sure I could theoretically assume the entire ship has automatic clearance, but that's an awfully big coincidence to go unstated in the story, and if this is standard operating procedure for them, I really don't see how they could be any less well-known than the CIA or the NSA. The only thing that would stop people from learning about them would be people not caring enough to talk about them - which we know isn't true, because people do dislike them viscerally and talk about it in the episode.

Maybe they were more ultra-secretive in ENT days compared to DIS, and maybe they become even more ultra-secretive in the DS9 era, but just because they might have be "more" secretive during ENT and DS9, that does not mean they did not still have a relatively high level of secretiveness during DIS.

Having said all that, I do agree that it's silly for them to have recognizable badges and such, but if the show wants to tell me that they are a highly secretive organization with identifying badges, then I'll accept that they are a highly secretive organization -- albeit one with the silly characteristic of having identifying badges.

I don't see where the show said they were 'highly secretive' as an organization. Sure they have some secret technologies, because spies, but their organization clearly officially exists, is acknowledged, is readily recognized, does not come with any warnings about not talking about what you've seen, etc.

I really don't see how this level of official existence goes to the total information black out of DS9 via any natural development. It could work if they're officially wiped from existence and cease to be officially acknowledged sometime soon, (though that still makes Romulan intelligence dumb for not knowing about Section 31's history) but otherwise, I don't buy it.

 

[Belz...]

Ok, I've watched the first five episodes of season 2.

Better than season 1 so far. Not great, but enjoyable in genera. I really do like Pike and the actor who plays him. I find myself hoping for a spinoff with him, Spock, Number One, and the Enterprise.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I prefer to think that Sybok doesn't exist.

It doesn't matter if you believe in Sybok. He believes in you.

And there doesn't seem to be anything Need to Know about S31's existence on DSC. Not one, but two different low level officers were already familiar with the organization before Georgiou flashed her badge and the story gave no hint as to either of them having ever had any Need to Know.

Just about everyone involved in the Section 31 part of the conversation here seems to be forgetting that the crews aboard Discovery and Glenn were cleared to know some pretty super-secret stuff - including their own spore drive. And also, that there were Section 31 personnel aboard in the first episode Discovery actually appeared in. So the crew's access to knowledge of Section 31, regardless of their specific rank, might be a bit more than normal - and not representative of Starfleet generally.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It doesn't matter if you believe in Sybok. He believes in you.

Just about everyone involved in the Section 31 part of the conversation here seems to be forgetting that the crews aboard Discovery and Glenn were cleared to know some pretty super-secret stuff - including their own spore drive. And also, that there were Section 31 personnel aboard in the first episode Discovery actually appeared in. So the crew's access to knowledge of Section 31, regardless of their specific rank, might be a bit more than normal - and not representative of Starfleet generally.

And yet they were never mentioned at the time and treated as a mystery. But now, with nothing relevant happening in between, Burnham suddenly has extensive opinions about the Dept. And so does Pike, who never even experienced the war at all. And the one person who doesn't seem to know exactly who they are was also an officer on Discovery for months, so I guess he missed the briefing?

In any case, if the writers wanted it be clear that this was all top secret, then they should probably have mentioned it rather than expecting people to assume it because of the ship. Not everything that happens on Discovery is automatically classified, so it would seem pretty critical to tell people which parts they aren't allowed to talk about.

 

[DaveyNY]

I rather doubt that any of the Discovery crew are sending messages home to their Kin and including thoughts about Section-31.
And we haven't seen any of said same crew take shore-leave and have lengthy conversations about Section-31 either.
I'm pretty sure that they would all have been forewarned not to discuss Top Secret things anyway.

So why is there an assumption that beyond the crew and the few characters involved in the story of Season 1, Section-31 is a well known entity in this time period?

 

[USS Triumphant]

And yet they were never mentioned at the time and treated as a mystery. But now, with nothing relevant happening in between, Burnham suddenly has extensive opinions about the Dept. And so does Pike, who never even experienced the war at all. And the one person who doesn't seem to know exactly who they are was also an officer on Discovery for months, so I guess he missed the briefing?

Burnham has HAD extensive opinions about them, it's just that it feels a bit safer to express them now that there only seems to be ONE of them aboard the ship she lives on (and one she has an 'in' with, at that). And Pike's reaction may be less that he has a history of knowledge of them so much as that he knows what he's seeing and being told about them as we go NOW - and he's a sharp Captain who has figured out what's not to like, PDQ.

 

[DaveyNY]

SECTION-31 is a written, physical part of the Federation's Founding Document.

Anybody who has read said document, would of course be aware of the existence of such a Department in Star Fleet Intelligence.
But that doesn't automatically mean that folks who have read about it, would necessarily know it's exact function or what it does on a daily basis.

I know about the CIA, but I couldn't tell anybody what's it's out there doing, to save my life.

 

[SJGardner]

I really don't see how this level of official existence goes to the total information black out of DS9 via any natural development. It could work if they're officially wiped from existence and cease to be officially acknowledged sometime soon, (though that still makes Romulan intelligence dumb for not knowing about Section 31's history) but otherwise, I don't buy it.

If knowledge of them is restricted to a need-to-know basis, the officer corps, certain ranks, etc., 100-120 years is more than enough time for them to fade into obscurity if they're officially dissolved during Discovery's run. Even if their records aren't purged, learning about their continued existence in the 2370s wouldn't be like learning about the KGB of recent memory still operating, but rather like the Okhrana still being around. And if they are erased from the archives, it's even less probable that TNG-era Starfleet personnel would hear about them en masse.

Sloan wore civilian clothes and told you upfront that Starfleet would never even confirm the existence of his entire department, let alone his personal status as an agent. Georgiou wears a starfleet uniform with a special S31 badge and literally has papers that say Section 31 she can present to an annoying Captain who gets in her way.

If I recall correctly, Georgiou wore a black tactical vest and pulled out the badge of her pocket, upon which Pike identified her as Section 31. If they are still classified, then someone who wasn't briefed probably wouldn't have recognized what it meant. Tyler, on the other hand, wore the black badge openly on both the Section 31 uniform last week and on his Starfleet uniform this week, so yeah, that would be the harder nut to crack. But I suspect a random enlisted crew member seeing him would probably not recognize his badge either beyond being something outside the normal departments.

Speaking of Sloan, he wore civilian clothing when he was undercover as Wendell Greer, AD of the Federation Department of Cartography. Other than that, he wore the same black leather outfit seen on Harris or Leland.

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't buy it - people loving tracking miltary badges - it would be all sub-space channels.

Secret organisation generally stay secret via not having obvious badges and uniforms. As presented onscreen ( in Discovery)- it's clearly just a secretive (about its activities) but known Starfleet division.

 

[Novarcharesk]

I just think Section 31 having badges in this point of history is a tiny aspect and is no more important to me than when Picard went to the holodeck the first time and somehow tracked lipstick to the observation lounge for Beverly to wipe off, but never happening again.