Do elaborate on the times he mutineed.
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- Thread starter Lord Garth
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How does one "mutiny" one's own starship captaincy?
"You do this Captain you'll never serve on a starship again".
Let's not play ignorant here.
Kirk mutineed? That never happened.
He did steal the Enterprise in STIII, but that was not a mutiny. It was theft.
A mutiny would be like what happened with Pressman on the Pegasus... active, armed takeover of a ship from its captain by the crew.
The Enterprise was in dock, no crew, and shut off... therefore, no mutiny.
He did steal the Enterprise in STIII, but that was not a mutiny. It was theft.
A mutiny would be like what happened with Pressman on the Pegasus... active, armed takeover of a ship from its captain by the crew.
The Enterprise was in dock, no crew, and shut off... therefore, no mutiny.
While Kirk disobeyed a direct order he did not attempt to usurp lawful chain of command. He engaged in a lot of crimes, many I think should have landed him brig time but that was not the punishment.
That's not a "mutiny" in any sense of the word.
Kirk was never "ordered" to NOT steal the Enterprise.
He was told he couldn't go back because the USS Enterprise was being decommissioned and the Federation Council was debating what to do next about the 'Genesis' situation and waiting for the report from a "Science Team". (that never got there)
Ya might want to actually learn the meaning of the word you're tossing around beforehand, because the only one "playing ignorant here" is you.
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Ultimately, I like to think this is what happened.
Hopefully we get some updates on Burnham and Discovery in Starfleet Academy.
Let's get this out of the way and end the dogpiling. The list of charges in Star Trek IV:
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: "The charges and specifications are
Transcript from Chakoteya
Three charges must've been dropped between the beginning and end of the movie because in the beginning, the Federation President said Kirk had been charged with nine violations, and this was only six.
What those other three charges were before the Council changed their mind? I guess that's what places like this are for to figure out.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: "The charges and specifications are
- Conspiracy.
- Assault on Federation Officers.
- Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise.
- Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior,
- Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise.
- And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander.
Transcript from Chakoteya
Three charges must've been dropped between the beginning and end of the movie because in the beginning, the Federation President said Kirk had been charged with nine violations, and this was only six.
What those other three charges were before the Council changed their mind? I guess that's what places like this are for to figure out.
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It's possible one of those are for multiple officers... Sulu with the guard and Uhura for putting 'Mr. Adventure' in the closet. So that's two in total. (One more assault makes it Federation Officers, plural.)
Another one that could fall under sabotage would be Sulu blowing up the console at the brig.
And likely the other is the jailbreak of McCoy, because he was already under arrest for talking about Genesis in a crowded bar.
So I think it likely that 2 of the charges were simply combined as a plural, and only one dropped, being McCoy's jailbreak. That would bring it down to six total charges.
And mutiny was definitely not on the table.
Another one that could fall under sabotage would be Sulu blowing up the console at the brig.
And likely the other is the jailbreak of McCoy, because he was already under arrest for talking about Genesis in a crowded bar.
So I think it likely that 2 of the charges were simply combined as a plural, and only one dropped, being McCoy's jailbreak. That would bring it down to six total charges.
And mutiny was definitely not on the table.
One thing I'll say about the situation in "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars" is it truly was a No-Win Scenario. The Klingons wanted war, no matter what. So, there was no chance they'd back down. None.
T'Kuvma was using the Federation as a target, a scapegoat to unite all the Klingon factions against. No way would he back down. He's someone who, to paraphrase TUC, would stand to lose from peace.
So, Georgiou and the Admiral could've responded diplomatically and would make no difference. Burnham could've gotten her way and the Shenzhou could've attacked and it would've given T'Kuvma the red meat he was looking for to encourage the Klingons to fight.
To quote Admiral Kirk in TWOK, "There's no correct resolution. It's a test of character." Kirk cheated in the Kobayashi Maru, but there was nothing for Burnham to reprogram. It was real and happening right in front of her. And no matter what happened, the Klingons' answer would've been "We're going to war!"
That's the long way of saying I think Burnham mutinied for nothing. And, in the process, Captain Georgiou was killed. Then the rest of the first season was Burnham trying to make up for her grave mistake. It's why she wants to find a way to end the Klingon War that doesn't sacrifice the Federation's values and it's why she saves Mirror Georgiou. By saving her, she feels like she's making up for getting her Georgiou killed. That's what she's convinced herself. It's all about "How do I make this right?" Her definition of right, but there it is. I like watching shows about characters this flawed, the flaws make it interesting, so I don't mind them, but they're definitely there. Anyway...
Kirk never mutinied. He was insubordinate, yes, he even admitted it in TUC, but that's different from mutinous.
In "The Vulcan Hello", Burnham was pushing for one approach, Saru was pushing for another, and Georgiou had to make the final decision. That dynamic sound familiar? Except instead of logical vs. emotional, it's boldness vs. caution. When Burnham finally becomes Captain she has to weigh other opinions too, but she's definitely not there yet in "The Vulcan Hello" and she's not even the Captain.
What I think Kirk and Burnham have in common is the ability to think outside the box. Burnham thinking outside the box saved the day at the end of every season. Kirk thinking outside the box typically saved the day at the end of every episode.
When I compare Burnham to Kirk, I look in the upward direction.
T'Kuvma was using the Federation as a target, a scapegoat to unite all the Klingon factions against. No way would he back down. He's someone who, to paraphrase TUC, would stand to lose from peace.
So, Georgiou and the Admiral could've responded diplomatically and would make no difference. Burnham could've gotten her way and the Shenzhou could've attacked and it would've given T'Kuvma the red meat he was looking for to encourage the Klingons to fight.
To quote Admiral Kirk in TWOK, "There's no correct resolution. It's a test of character." Kirk cheated in the Kobayashi Maru, but there was nothing for Burnham to reprogram. It was real and happening right in front of her. And no matter what happened, the Klingons' answer would've been "We're going to war!"
That's the long way of saying I think Burnham mutinied for nothing. And, in the process, Captain Georgiou was killed. Then the rest of the first season was Burnham trying to make up for her grave mistake. It's why she wants to find a way to end the Klingon War that doesn't sacrifice the Federation's values and it's why she saves Mirror Georgiou. By saving her, she feels like she's making up for getting her Georgiou killed. That's what she's convinced herself. It's all about "How do I make this right?" Her definition of right, but there it is. I like watching shows about characters this flawed, the flaws make it interesting, so I don't mind them, but they're definitely there. Anyway...
Kirk never mutinied. He was insubordinate, yes, he even admitted it in TUC, but that's different from mutinous.
In "The Vulcan Hello", Burnham was pushing for one approach, Saru was pushing for another, and Georgiou had to make the final decision. That dynamic sound familiar? Except instead of logical vs. emotional, it's boldness vs. caution. When Burnham finally becomes Captain she has to weigh other opinions too, but she's definitely not there yet in "The Vulcan Hello" and she's not even the Captain.
What I think Kirk and Burnham have in common is the ability to think outside the box. Burnham thinking outside the box saved the day at the end of every season. Kirk thinking outside the box typically saved the day at the end of every episode.
When I compare Burnham to Kirk, I look in the upward direction.
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"Mutiny" refers to forcibly removing a commanding officer from command. Kirk never did that, and the example you cite was him facing off against an officer he actually outranked, so there is no possible way that can be considered mutiny.
And yes, by that definition Michael is not a mutineer either. At best, you can say she attempted mutiny.
We're not.
I can think of plenty of violations Kirk did that should have landed him in the brig for a while, depending on how the regulations and treaty read.
Not mutiny.
A bridge crew and command staff mutiny happened to Kirk's body when his mind was inhabited by Dr. Janice Lester in Turnabout Intruder.
There is also prime Spock when he took Pike to Talos IV, though it could be argued the Talosians did the actual heavy lifting. And he was forgiven once Kirk understood the reason behind it.
I'd say that doesn't count since it wasn't actually Kirk.
Except at the time, the bridge crew didn't know it wasn't actually Kirk. Those that knew of the Kirk / Lester mind swap were all in custody. The bridge crew thought they were committing a mutiny against the CO, not Janice Lester. It didn't count later when the truth finally came out.
There's an interesting wrinkle here. In the real life military, officers are not required to follow illegal orders. The execution Lester-Kirk ordered was illegal since Spock didn't commit an alleged violation that warranted the death penalty.
Instead of taking over the ship through mutiny, they could've tried to have another hearing to determine Kirk's command fitness after both ordering an illegal execution and refusing to accept the vote for Spock to go free.
But Scotty and McCoy were too caught up in the moment to think this through and there are the demands of a dramatic TV show. It would've only taken a few extra legal steps to get where they wanted to be. Instead, they gave Lester-Kirk the soundbite she wanted.
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Now I want a JAG officer to do a little episode review. Could be fun.
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