Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Gene gets much bad talk around here....
- Thread starter JesterFace
- Start date
I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to make the point that there are bad people who occasionally can do a good thing (just as the reverse can be true, good people who might do a bad thing now and again).
I was distinguishing that from someone who is truly evil, like Hitler, for whom you could say no good thing about.
My primary point though was that Roddenberry sounds like a 'bad' guy, who happened to come up with something good. And I wonder, as others have noted, was coming up with Star Trek, and some of the characters he created, an idealized vision for himself. Not so much that he believed he was those people, but that he wished he were more like those people.
For all the bad things he did, I almost kind of hope that's what it was. That he had the insight to realize he was doing bad things and wished he could be more like Kirk, or Picard.
Yeah I fail to see how "The Cage" was any more or less cerebral then "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
Both deal with the psychological aspects of the human condition, and the dreams in fantasies that humanity keeps hidden and don't dare expose.
The only big difference I see is that the 'action piece' that had Pike involved in a knockdown drag out fight to the death was pretty much in the middle of "The Cage", and the last act of the episode was Pike and company philosophizing with the keeper, and the reveal of why Vina would decide to stay.
In "Where No Man Has Gone Before"; The last act is primarily of Kirk and Mitchell having a knock-down drag-out fight, with Kirk being saved by Dr. Dhaner, depowering Mitchell enough so that Kirk can ultimately find a way to overcome him.
Yes there's some philosophizing; but it's quick, and comes right after the big action sequence.
^^^
I think that's the real difference between the two pilots, and that change in structure is what ultimately sold the suits on the series.
Also, remember it was GR who claimed they all stated it was "too cerebral'. There were other things that NBC was concerned about, including the fact that he cast his mistress in a lead role; and given the projected cost of this series what would happen if it became a hit but during production GR and Major Barrett broke up?
The pilot was very expensive and took a long time to produce, and I remember one of the things NBC thought was that it would not be possible to maintain this level of production and turn out one new episode a week for broadcast.
That was part of the goal of the second pilot, to prove that they could do an episode a week and deliver something to the network to broadcast.
The second pilot did deliver on that because it had a much lower budget, and was shot a lot faster and turned around a lot quicker than the first pilot; so the suits were also satisfied that The show could be produced for a reasonable cost, and episodes could be delivered on time to the network for broadcast.
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I think a number of people have said NBC felt "The Cage" was too cerebral. I don't think that was just Roddenberry. They did reject it after all. Though I'm sure there were other factors too.
Roddenberry himself admitted he promised a 'wagon train to the stars' and whatever you may say about "The Cage" it was not like that. He even said he didn't blame them for rejecting it because he didn't deliver what he promised. It was one of the rare times Roddenberry said something was a mistake and it was on him, that it was his fault.
And I've read other things saying similar things, that the network thought it had potential (which led them to make the rare decision to commission a 2nd pilot--something that just wasn't done in those days), but they wanted more action.
I liked "The Cage"--but I don't think anyone would call it action packed.
Roddenberry himself admitted he promised a 'wagon train to the stars' and whatever you may say about "The Cage" it was not like that. He even said he didn't blame them for rejecting it because he didn't deliver what he promised. It was one of the rare times Roddenberry said something was a mistake and it was on him, that it was his fault.
And I've read other things saying similar things, that the network thought it had potential (which led them to make the rare decision to commission a 2nd pilot--something that just wasn't done in those days), but they wanted more action.
I liked "The Cage"--but I don't think anyone would call it action packed.
I don't feel any conflict at all in liking Star Trek and not liking Roddenberry. Sometimes bad people are involved in the creation of good things. I refuse to celebrate those people, but enjoying what they helped create is not celebrating them.
Granted, there can be situations where the circumstances are messy or tricky. I don't want to put money in Kevin Spacey's pocket, for instance, even though that could be unfair to other innocent people who worked on his projects without knowing what he was. But Roddenberry's pockets have been six feet under for decades. And it can be difficult, sometimes, when you know too much about someone to see their face or hear their voice and not feel turned off by it. But Roddenberry was never the face or the voice of Trek.
So yes, Star Trek would not have existed without him, but it does exist without him now and there is no aspect of enjoying it (even the older stuff) which in any way requires me to celebrate or defend him. If there was, then that would hurt my enthusiasm for Trek. But Trek has long since transcended his pathetic BS.
Granted, there can be situations where the circumstances are messy or tricky. I don't want to put money in Kevin Spacey's pocket, for instance, even though that could be unfair to other innocent people who worked on his projects without knowing what he was. But Roddenberry's pockets have been six feet under for decades. And it can be difficult, sometimes, when you know too much about someone to see their face or hear their voice and not feel turned off by it. But Roddenberry was never the face or the voice of Trek.
So yes, Star Trek would not have existed without him, but it does exist without him now and there is no aspect of enjoying it (even the older stuff) which in any way requires me to celebrate or defend him. If there was, then that would hurt my enthusiasm for Trek. But Trek has long since transcended his pathetic BS.
If he was that remorseful about his behavior, he would've made an effort to change it. He didn't.
? This is new to me. Where did Goodwin tell this story?
Stories get repeated.
Roddenberry nicked that line from Sam Peebles, BTW.
Never mind. Just found it here:
https://www.startrek.com/article/catching-up-laurel-goodwin-yeoman-colt-from-the-cage
Perhaps that's part of what makes it easier to continue to follow Star Trek despite Roddenberry. He wasn't constantly in the limelight. Most people outside Star Trek land have never even heard of him. Despite how he might like to see himself, he wasn't that well known outside Star Trek fans. And it seemed studio heads tried to even sideline him. And the fact that it took lots of other people to actually make it happen, it's easier to sideline him a bit.
I wouldn't go that far. At most it might have been subconscious. Or just the normal imagining we all do from time to time--"Gee, I wish I could be like that"--sort of thing.
Maybe. But I never heard anyone deny that a lack of action wasn't a factor in its rejection. And it just sounds like an odd thing to make up a false story about.
As mentioned, Braga and Jeri Ryan were never married. And IIRC, though there aren't many details about their relationship made public, I never got the impression anything inappropriate was going on, aside from the iffy bit that they did start dating while he was her boss.
Now, what does get a total YIKES is the story of Jeri Ryan's marriage to politician Jack Ryan (not to be confused with the Tom Clancy character of the same name). Jack took Jeri with him to sex clubs with her chained up in handcuffs and shackles. Though in an amusing twist of sheer fucking hubris, the scandal that broke out from this becoming public and the subsequent divorce was enough to cost Jack Ryan his shot at some prestigious congress position he was shooting for and it went by default to the only other person in the running for it, a young aspiring politician named Barack Obama.
Yes, some have raised concerns regarding Braga's outlook on women, based mostly on the fact that two of the more well-known female characters he's written (Seven of Nine and T'Pol) were emotionless ice queens who went around in skintight outfits, but aside from a perhaps unhealthy mentality, there's no evidence of any kind of untoward or inappropriate behavior towards women on Braga's part.
I don't think it's so much that the story was false as that Roddenberry spun the story, used it to get love at cons. He was a phone speaker at the first con I attended, and I saw him a few times afterward over the years, and he never failed to include this bit if his talks, always painting the network execs as being like Pakleds. When the story was told live, it always got laughs, and Gene reveled in the adulation of the audience. It's been a while since I listened to it, but the spoken-word album Inside Star Trek also had him recounting this story, I think.
What he was never able to explain, and amazingly what was never questioned on, was "If the execs were so stupid, and hated the idea so much, why did they order a second pilot?"
I don't think he repeated story elements particularly often, especially given that I think some of them were done a lot better when tried again later.
TWoK was a big improvement over TMP, I think TSfS and TVH were not. With TNG he did stop having direct creative control but he did seem to both still be a pretty big influence (Berman and Piller respecting and wanting to, at least being willing to, follow in his ideas of evolved humanity) and generally approve of and like how Berman and Piller were running the show.
This was an episode that featured a fight with giant alien using melee weapons, Pike choking out his captor and a fricking laser canon blasting at the side of a mountain. Not seeing a lack of action there. WNMHGB might actually have less action.
I don't find it bad in general if someone is a womanizer, if they are while married that's a bad thing but not that terrible.
Even now it might still be, like Bill Clinton's, just highly muddled rather than totally shattered.
It's up to each person but I generally have little if any problem in separating the art from the artist, let alone of art that is old and/or made by many people.
There's some skeletons, even misdeeds, from people behind most entertainment and I don't think people are bad people for refusing to enjoy most entertainment.
Heck, beyond just having the original idea he did contribute to making many particular episodes and producing the show, and the show was also still very collaborative.
From what I've seen, putting aside the rumors about Grace Lee Whitney, David Gerrold and Ellison seem the only people he worked with who particularly disliked him, while on the other hand D.C. Fontana and Robert Justman had some disagreements and grudges against him but didn't particularly dislike him or consider him terrible.
Even now it might still be, like Bill Clinton's, just highly muddled rather than totally shattered.
It's up to each person but I generally have little if any problem in separating the art from the artist, let alone of art that is old and/or made by many people.
There's some skeletons, even misdeeds, from people behind most entertainment and I don't think people are bad people for refusing to enjoy most entertainment.
Heck, beyond just having the original idea he did contribute to making many particular episodes and producing the show, and the show was also still very collaborative.
From what I've seen, putting aside the rumors about Grace Lee Whitney, David Gerrold and Ellison seem the only people he worked with who particularly disliked him, while on the other hand D.C. Fontana and Robert Justman had some disagreements and grudges against him but didn't particularly dislike him or consider him terrible.
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How many "the Enterprise meets god but then it turns out it's aliens/a computer/whatever" story-lines do we have?
And imho "Who watches the watchers" was the only passable treatment of that general "theme" (though it's an inversion)
Have you watched it? That is no myth. It is a slow moving piece to make you think. Very little action. Gene continued using these types of stories, but found a way to add some action or more tension to the story. For this pilot, he added the tension of Spock stealing the Enterprise and being court martialed to liven things up. And TMP and Encounter At Farpoint share the same slow, thought provoking story without much action.
I've always agreed with the "too cerebral" label because there is just something off about the story when it stands on its own. Embedded in The Menagerie it works much better. And in recent years rumors have circulated that Lucille Ball called in some favors to get NBC to agree to a second pilot. The Cage was a pretty good little 64 minute Sci-fi movie, but it doesn't do a good job of connecting you to the characters. I personally think it was partly casting. But the story definitely was written and presented in a manner that lacked. "Too cerebral" has always seemed to fit, at least for me.
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I think what we take as "too cerebral" and what was meant at the time are two different things.
But, there was a lot of context, including Gene's pitch as "Wagon Train to the Stars" which had its own style and format, and I am pretty sure that The Cage wasn't in line with that.
But, there was a lot of context, including Gene's pitch as "Wagon Train to the Stars" which had its own style and format, and I am pretty sure that The Cage wasn't in line with that.
That was my impression as well. I've only ever been to 1 convention so I haven't seen Roddenberry speak about it except what I've read online and his intro to the VHS version of "The Cage" years ago.
There is where he said he promised NBC a sort of "Wagon Train to the Stars" and he said he failed to deliver it, that NBC was upset about it. Then he said he really couldn't blame them--he promised something and failed to deliver. At least in that case he wasn't dissing on NBC.
And while I liked "The Cage", I honestly never saw it as an action-adventure flick. Yes, it had some action moments in it, but an action-adventure that does not make. It was very talky and more sci-fi oriented.
"Where No Man Has Gone Before" was much tighter and more action-adventure oriented I thought (which isn't just fights and explosions--which WNMHGB also does have). And it was more in line with what Roddenberry said NBC was looking for.
I never thought it was because NBC was dumb or couldn't handle it. Obviously they thought enough of it to order a 2nd pilot. So they saw potential there. But they wanted a show that people would watch and advertisers would pay for. And they felt "The Cage", while it had potential, needed more of what they felt the public would watch.
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I got Jeri Ryan's two significant others confused (merged?) in my ageing brain.
Exactly. And, I think it was Nimoy who related in "I Am Spock" that the execs were concerned people wouldn't care about the characters as presented and wouldn't tune in again and again.
