• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Gary Kerr's Enterprise....

What Gary appears to be doing is similar to how I approached trying to draw the "real" shuttlecraft. I used the full-size mockup as the baseline and the truest representation of the actual ship. The only thing I took from the miniature was the underside detailing (the scallop or cut-out underneath) and that the miniature doesn't have the obvious "nose down" orientation. To that end I cleaned up the lines of the stabilizer rim detail to create a suggustion of "nose down" when it isn't at all---its an illusion---because I made the underside of the underside of the stabilizer rim run parallel to the ground and nacelle centrelines. I felt it a reasonable compromise to make the ship look most like it does onscreen whether seen up close or from a distance. Also the wedge like shape of the full-size mockup is part of its look so I didn't want to lose that.

The biggest issue that arises with the shuttlecraft is the interior in size and proportions. To get the interior we saw onscreen you would have to scale up the exterior to some 32ft. in length. This results in two propblems. Firstly from a practical standpoint (within the fictional context) the craft has become too large to be properly accommodated within the Enterprise's hangar deck, also taking into account the ship has at least four shuttlecraft to accommodate. Another problem (within the fictional context) is the step up height to enter/exit the craft becomes inconveniently high. Another problem is that even scaling up the exterior doesn't help the fact the proportions of the interior cabin don't match the exterior shell. The exterior is proportionately much wider than the interior would dictate (which in itself isn't a huge problem because it allows for mechanicals between hulls), but even worse the angle of the interior's forward bulkhead is much more shallow than the angle of the exterior's sloping hull. That and the width issue means it is basically impossible to match up the exterior and interior window placements. If you widen the interior to fit the exterior you end up with something that looks unnaturely wide inside. If you match the exterior openings to match the interior you drastically change the look of the ship's forward section. No matter what way you do it it ends up looking wrong. I don't mean this as a serious criticism, but everyone I've seen wrestle with this issue to accommodate a standing interior ends up having to alter the look of the craft significantly.

I largerly ignored the 24ft. reference onscreen because it was simply too constraining. I approached it with the idea "what was Jefferies really trying to convey?" while taking into account obvious production compromises. The interior is the sticking point.

The first things that hit me while looking at the interior were the fact the chairs and consoles were set lower to the deck for no discernible reason---they obviously had enough room. And why were the actors so often walking about the interior stooped over a bit when they obviously had enough room to stand? Finally we know many of the Enterprise sets were a bit oversized (particularly in ceiling height) to accommodate the bulky filming equipment of the time. So why would the shuttlecraft interior be any different? From those clues I reasoned they were trying to suggest the interior was actually meant to be smaller than what we saw (just as the forced perspective of the exterior tried to make the mockup look larger than it actuall was). The conclusion I came to was the exterior had to be a bit larger than the actual mockup and the interior had to be smaller than what it seemed to be onscreen.

I played with both to make them fit together. In the end I had an exterior that was about 26-1/2ft. in length and an interior that allowed someone 5'-7" to stand upright, but anyone taller had to stoop a bit, which is what we saw them doing onscreen. I was able to keep the proportions of the interior as seen except in two measurements. The length is tightened up some as was the ceiling height, but otherwise it looks very much like it does on the screen.

Perhaps the most contentious issue I faced was the forward bulkhead. I faced the same problem everyone faces when they get to this point: there is no way to properly match the exterior and interior window placings without some major compromise, also considering the angle of the exterior and interior bulkheads are different as well. I didn't want to drastically alter the look of either the exterior or interior and so I went with a tech solution: I reasoned what we saw from the inside were not actually windows in the traditional sense. Rather I accepted them as display monitors similar to those seen around the Enterprise's bridge. The exterior panels I rationalized as sensor panels. I know this is a sticking point with some, but no one can offer me a better solution. Taking this route also allowed me to retain the differing angles of both the exterior and interior bulkheads.

Even with my compromises I still had an exterior proportionately wider than the interior, but not nearly as great as with maintaining a huge interior. But this allowed me to be more "real" because now I could allow for a double hull structure with room for systems and mechanicals between hulls rather than trying to make it look like the ship had little more than a plywood thin hull (something the Franz Joseph drawings of the shuttlecraft has).

Finally there was a coincidental result of my final approach to the shuttlecraft: the length of the main hull, excluding nacelles and aft landing gear, is near exactly 24ft. I was quite surprised to learn that.

This was my solution and it isn't definitive because everyone else will have different interpretations and emphasize different elements. My overriding consideration was that my final result actually look near identical to what I saw onscreen. I was striving for a "real" integrated vehicle rather than simply replicating a studio prop.

In the end the main thing I'm concerned with regarding the forthcoming Round2 model kit is that they get the exterior right. And if Gary is using the full-size mockup as the primary template than I have little worry over the final result. Regardless of it being 1/32 scale in your own mind it can be whatever you really believe it to be.
 
I seem to remember Gary shared a small image of the underside of the saucer at Hobbytalk with regards to the small holes on the lower rim of the saucer.

I think a Chinese company did a see through Enterprise (not the Art Asylum version?)

I seem to remember seeing FJs art in the 150 yr Federation book--but not in the one I bought.

I'm hoping at some point Gary just sells some blueprint sets at least...until then Casimiro's seem to be about the best.

My own preference would be for folks to flesh out novel cover images of the Enterprise what with different takes, details as the artist made them.

Shaws Phase II saucer drawing would look perfect on FJ's very fluid secondary hull. FJ's saucer is actually at its best on the Coronado thru-deck carrier with a more angular secondary hull matching that stark saucer better.
 
Okay, folks, I've got a small tidbit for you.

From what I understand Gary Kerr's plans for the R2 shuttlecraft model kit will give us a replica just under 11ins. in length. If you're strict about scale this means a ship about 30ft. in length. He acknowledges that reconciling the interior and exterior is a huge headache. And while he and I might differ in certain details he is approaching it in somewhat similar fashion as I did.

He is using the full-size exterior prop as the main template while adopting the cut-out on the miniature prop's underside (as I did as well). The apparent sag at the front of the mockup (because of the weight) will be corrected as will other production flaws and compromises. By necessity the interior will not be as full-size as what was seen onscreen, but he's sacrificing only a bit of cabin length and ceiling height, again much the same as I did.

From what he's said I am pretty assured the kit will be exceptional.
 
Well one thing that should be remembered is that both the 11 footer and the shuttlecraft mockup were productions compromises with inevitable flaws. Drawing any plans for a "true" ship I would try to correct those flaws.

A good example is that the 11 footer's main saucer was not a true circle. Of course you wouldn't draw plans for the actual ship that way because it only makes sense the saucer would be perfectly round. And that's how Gary and Round2 approached researching and developing the 1/350 TOS Enterprise model kit, that they were creating a replica of an actual starship rather than an imperfect studio prop.
yes i absolutely agree that the studio model is imperfect that is why i fully admit that my ship as well as any ship is a compromise. that is ok with me even if no one beside my self likes what i have done. as soon as i have my 50 posts i will let everyone see what i have come up with so that the critics can pick them apart.
 
The mockup had some tapering going on (in the 'racing stripes') that we believe were used to make it a bit larger, e.g. a bit of forced perspective. Remember, the lettering and stripes were painted by the studio and they would have been very aware that its too small to fit the inside.
I think that forced perspective is a dubious conclusion for several reasons.

  1. The side walls do not appear to taper
  2. The red stripes on the Enterprise nacelles taper towards the back
  3. The texts on the side of the craft don't taper (do they?)
  4. Since it's a full mockup, it was designed to be shot from different angles, and you don't put forced perspective on something you're also going to shoot from the "small" end
 
The mockup had some tapering going on (in the 'racing stripes') that we believe were used to make it a bit larger, e.g. a bit of forced perspective. Remember, the lettering and stripes were painted by the studio and they would have been very aware that its too small to fit the inside.
I think that forced perspective is a dubious conclusion for several reasons.

  1. The side walls do not appear to taper
  2. The red stripes on the Enterprise nacelles taper towards the back
  3. The texts on the side of the craft don't taper (do they?)
  4. Since it's a full mockup, it was designed to be shot from different angles, and you don't put forced perspective on something you're also going to shoot from the "small" end
I get this from the horse's mouth (or a guy who has/is studiously studying the shuttlecraft mockup and miniature). The mockup and miniature did have differences.

- The full-size exterior was indeed built with forced perspective in mind, something not shared by the miniature. That said that wedged look has become an accepted part of the design. Apparently even the nacelles flared toward the aft (somewhat), but apparently it doesn't look right on a "real" ship so R2's model will have straight nacelles as we all expect.
- The mockup not only tapered as seen from the side, but it did so as seen from above as well.
- The "nose down" or front sag of the mockup was a production flaw because of the weight of the mockup. This will be corrected on R2's model because the miniature certainly doesn't have that sagging nose. It's also been corrected on the restored original now on display in Dallas (I believe).
- The bottom of the full-size mockup was not detailed or finished because it was never expected to be seen. To that end the underside detail of the miniature will be used to otherwise "fill in the blanks." Other than that the full-size mockup is being used as the primary template for what the shuttlecraft is supposed to look like.
- We might also see the inclusion of optional parts for things initially planned for the shuttlecraft but they never got around to doing. I, for one, am quite interested to discover what those things are.
- Like some of the Enterprise interior sets the shuttlecraft's interior was built larger than it should have been so to accommodate the bulky filming equipment of the period. Sadly someone failed to really touch base on the exterior's proportions because the interior's proportions do not well match those of the exterior. The exterior is proportionately wider than it needed to be, but since it allows for space between hulls for ship's mechanicals and such it's not a real deal breaker. However, because of the discrepency in width you really couldn't have the internal access hatch we saw onscreen because there would be too much of a gap between the interior and exterior hulls. Also the interior's sloping forward bulkhead failed to match the angle of the exterior's sloping forward section---another discrepency that with the wider exterior hull makes it pretty much impossible to reconcile the three windows on the forward hull.
 
Here's where this gets confusing. [Search4] initially mentioned the red stripes as examples of forced perspective, but those taper from front to back, and now [we're] talking about how the mockup tapers from back to front, which would make the stripes actually fight this supposed forced perspective. Something's wrong there.

Is there a primary source that says indicates this supposed forced perspective? Like plans? A memo?
 
Last edited:
- We might also see the inclusion of optional parts for things initially planned for the shuttlecraft but they never got around to doing. I, for one, am quite interested to discover what those things are.
One thing he mentioned on FB was those two little grills on the front. Gary found out they were intended to be headlights, but lights were never installed on the mockup.
 
I didn't mention the racing stripes. I think he's referring to the Starfleet pennants.

Gary Kerr, who has researched the shuttlecraft extensively for the planned Round2 model kit, got a lot of his info directly from Gene Whitfield who actually built the shuttlecraft mockup. Whitfield affirms the mockup was built with elements of forced perspective built into it.
 
We've also spoken to Gene and he agrees with the forced perspective elements. That's the deal. And yes, it makes no sense the other way! Remember, Gene built the mock up in Arizona, long before it was filmed or various shot angles laid out, and there were minimal detailed plans.

The actual lettering is uniform and does not taper; the "racing stripes" taper. In addition the curved metal on top and bottom plus the differing width nacelles all contribute to the effect. Its subtle but its there. And note, the "racing stripes" were painted by the studio, so its there intent that is of concern. Have to admit we've never seen a memo, though.

The open areas on the front are for the "landing lights"... think headlights. I hope Gary details them out to original spec.

The nacelles in fact do taper and the actual barrell gets a bit thinner. The metal is actually thinner - you wouldn't want to step on it as you go down the length of the ship.
 
Gary intends the nacelles to be straight rather than tapered. The landing lights are one option mentioned. There might be others but I have no details.
 
I didn't mention the racing stripes. I think he's referring to the Starfleet pennants.
Sorry. I meant so say Search4 said.

From the diagrams of the full size mockup it's not unbelievable that there's some forced perspective going on, but it remains a peculiar choice to make for something designed to be shot from all angles, since it would have the opposite of the intended effect when shot from the front.
 
I didn't mention the racing stripes. I think he's referring to the Starfleet pennants.
Sorry. I meant so say Search4 said.

From the diagrams of the full size mockup it's not unbelievable that there's some forced perspective going on, but it remains a peculiar choice to make for something designed to be shot from all angles, since it would have the opposite of the intended effect when shot from the front.
And yet that's the way it is. Mind you it's not an exaggerated measure of forced perspective and as such it can easily be accepted as part of a wedge shaped design. Viewed from angles from the front the design doesn't suffer from the degree of forced perspective built into it so I'd say it's all good.
 
A good example is that the 11 footer's main saucer was not a true circle.

:confused: :confused: :confused: If that is true, I didn't notice yet, can you please elaborate?

Bob
When Gary Kerr researched the 11 footer over the years and more recently for the development of Round2's 1/350 scale TOS Enterprise model kit he learned the ship's main saucer isn't a perfect circle. It obviously wasn't really out of whack or major because, as you said, no one ever noticed it. But it is what it is and can be chalked up to studio production compromises like the left side of the ship not being finished or one nacelle being a bit shorter than the other. You can get away with those sort of things on a studio prop because practically no one will notice when the prop is nicely lighted and presented onscreen.

But obviously if you're going to make a model of the "real" starship the studio prop is supposed to represent then you have to correct the flaws of the prop. So the saucer of the model kit was made perfectly true and the nacelles are perfectly symetrical and the left side of the ship is finished and detailed.

Another flaw of the 11 footer were those three engraved rings under the saucer. In reality they were rather roughly scored into the model. On the model kit they are cleanly and perfectly engraved. The gridlines on the saucer were drawn in pencil and not perfectly, but the gridlines on the model kit are more tidily done (even if being a point of contention with some fans).


The same thing will be done with the forthcoming 1/32 scale shuttlecraft model kit---production flaws and compromises will be corrected to present a model of a "real" shuttlecraft rather than just replicating a studio prop.

This isn't a new thing. Chances are those very nice replicas of TOS phasers, communicators, tricorders and other props made over the years could well be more nicely detailed and finished than the original studio props.


Television and film production can hide a lot of prop, set and costume sins.
 
Isn't "prop" just a short way of saying something belongs to the property department.? The shooting model would certainly have been part of the inventory of the the property department of the studio.

The same way the "uniforms" belonged to the costume department.


:)
 
There is a distinction between a set, a costume and a prop. So how would a miniature be classified? You can have small miniatures and great honking big ones. The 11 footer Enterprise, the 8 footer TMP refit, some of the ship miniatures for 2001 and other SF films as well as things like the Titanic for Titanic were big replicas. How are they classified and who is responsible for them?
 
When Gary Kerr researched the 11 footer over the years and more recently for the development of Round2's 1/350 scale TOS Enterprise model kit he learned the ship's main saucer isn't a perfect circle. It obviously wasn't really out of whack or major because, as you said, no one ever noticed it.

Since the 11 footer consists mostly of wooden materials we can assume that improper storage and/or heat and/or humidity contributed to some kind of warping? (I wouldn't dare to expose the VFX model even for 10 minutes under the Californian Sun)

Bob
 
When Gary Kerr researched the 11 footer over the years and more recently for the development of Round2's 1/350 scale TOS Enterprise model kit he learned the ship's main saucer isn't a perfect circle. It obviously wasn't really out of whack or major because, as you said, no one ever noticed it.

Since the 11 footer consists mostly of wooden materials we can assume that improper storage and/or heat and/or humidity contributed to some kind of warping? (I wouldn't dare to expose the VFX model even for 10 minutes under the Californian Sun)

Bob
I don't know, but it's possible. Or it's just as possible it was always that way. Even now when you look at the 11 footer on display at the Smithsonian it's hard to see the saucer isn't truly round. So like I said maybe it isn't off by much.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top