Garrett Wang

[fireproof78]

Honestly, the harping on Kim not being promoted is, if anything, moving me more toward thinking the whole situation is kind of hilarious and caring less about it, because I can't

No more so than any other fan obsession.

And also,it's an incongruity. People are fascinated by them. Speculation will abound due to lacking any concrete information.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No more so than any other fan obsession.

And also,it's an incongruity. People are fascinated by them. Speculation will abound due to lacking any concrete information.

Earlier in the thread, it was claimed that everyone got bumped up a grade for surviving the command of a crazy person for 7 years in high waters... But I got to wonder if there would be a few people in the crew who would look in contempt at such a nonglobulous promotion?

Proud Harry might turn it down, since it's a little embarrassing to just be handed out a gimme for not dying, when factually he'd died almost more than any other person alive.

 

[Oddish]

Proud Harry might turn it down, since it's a little embarrassing to just be handed out a gimme for not dying, when factually he'd died almost more than any other person alive.

Only issue is that they didn't consider Janeway crazy. They bumped her up to vice admiral and made her the template fir the training hologram.

Second, I think she has him beat in turns of number of deaths... Janeway expired 17 times, 18 if you count the destruction of her hologram alter ego.

And third, considering Harry's vast accomplishments, it seems unlikely that he would regard promotion to lieutenant as a "gimme". By his own admission ("Nightingale", had Voyager been in the Alpha Quadrant, he would have been that rank at least. I am simply of the mind that he should have gotten that promotion regardless.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Only issue is that they didn't consider Janeway crazy. They bumped her up to vice admiral and made her the template fir the training hologram.

Second, I think she has him beat in turns of number of deaths... Janeway expired 17 times, 18 if you count the destruction of her hologram alter ego.

And third, considering Harry's vast accomplishments, it seems unlikely that he would regard promotion to lieutenant as a "gimme". By his own admission ("Nightingale", had Voyager been in the Alpha Quadrant, he would have been that rank at least. I am simply of the mind that he should have gotten that promotion regardless.

Coda should only be counted as one death.

 

[Lynx]

He has joined an organization as part of the Travelers, and linked to other organizations in Trek history.

Oh dear, so bland and boring.
But that's exactly what I mean. They don't hade the guts to simply restore him to normal and make him a Starfleet officer again which I believe was the original intention. They are totaly stuck, like turtles in wet concrete in that lousy TNG episode scenario from season 7 when Wesley is ruined and behade like a spoiled brat.

That implies they regard them as errors. We are unique here in that we think (and overthink) on plot points that these writers have moved past on and do not regard as important.

The point is that they haven't moved on to anything. They are stuck in a bad scenario and lacks the will and maybe even the skill to do something about it. Just like turtles who are stuck in a pool of wet concrete or quicksand.

Good.

Speaking of characters you care about, @Lynx , have you read "I'm Crazy for Q"? I think you'll like Kes's ending.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/im-crazy-for-q-a-story-in-eleven-endings.311180/

Nice one.
This could have been a great ending instead of the dreadul Endgame and the episode fading out with the old Heart song "Crazy On You" but with the lyrics "Crazy For Q" instead.

Yeah. Given how Bashir ended "The Quickening", I don't think he'd just leave his best mate in the lurch. He wouldn't rest until that gross injustice was undone.

I don't yet have a head canon as to what happened to the Agrathi... but I'll come up with something suitably dreadful.

That's what I think too.
And the Agrathi were horrible. Talk about torturing people. And O'Brien was innocent!

Picard among them. I'm sure that Locutus thing really messed with him.

Funny how he keeps his position after Borgification, Cardassian torture, and 40 subjective years on a pre-warp planet... but when he's shorter and has hair, out he goes!

Picard was exactly who I was thinking about while discussing this.

Are any of them still involved in Trek? I think Berman and Braga were the ones responsible for Harry's non-promotion during VOY's run, and AFAIK, they're long gone.

Again, I think that the reason for Harry not returning is probably something more innocent than a 30-year vendetta... but circumstances do make you wonder.

They are not involved with anything Trek, at least not what I'm aware of.
But they may still have long tentacles. Like "I know someone, who know someone who is the current producer of......."

If they aren't involved at all and don't care about Wang's or any other former actors thoughts, then Alternative 2 might be the correct answer. The theory that recent showrunners or even authors of books are very reluctant when it comes to correcting errors from previous series.

Every book and video game that I'm aware of has given Harry a promotion. Ironically, about the only person to propose a "Harry the eternal ensign" resolution is Garrett himself... maybe he was trying to write himself into "Lower Decks".

We know what should happen to Harry... it happened in ST Online, Janeway's autobiography, the deleted "Endgame" timeline, and his proposed PIC appearance. We just can't seen to get it over the threshold of canon.

Strange that Wang himself proposes the "eternal ensign" when he has explained his dissatisfaction over how his character was handled for many years.

Sometimes actors act weird in real life.
As for "canon", I believe that "canon" is necessary because otherwise the storytelling would end up in chaos. But some stupidities which many fans oppose and are angry avbout should be possible to correct, I mean the Seven/Chakotay romance or whatever it was seem to have been thrown out of the window a long time ago and in some cases, just one little dialogue could be enough, like:

GEORDI LA FORGE: "I had a chat with Lieutenant Kim on Voyager and he confirms my suspicion about what's going on on Cardassia now.

or

KATHRYN JANEWAY: "Considering those events, we know that this entity who tried to destroy the ship wasn't the real Kes!"

or

BASHIR: "Like when Worf fought and killed that Cardassian who had altered his appearance to look like Gowron."

Is it really so hard to come up with something like that in a simple dialogue?

Correct... I didn't really liked that plot twist when it aired, but since PIC S2, it's grown on me. A bit.



Whatever pleases you. I don't call it the Oddishverse, but I've started my own alternative timeline, which seeks to give Seska, Tuvix, and Carey a fairer shake. As well as the best ship in Voyager.

I've more and less restored Carey in my mind. I just have to take a look at how he was killed off to take care of the details.

And I do have a plot about Seska too. What if there was a real Bajoran Seska out there? Someone who was captured by the Cardassians and they used an Obsidian Order operative to became a copy of her. What happened then to the real Seska?

 

[Oddish]

Coda should only be counted as one death.

That's still 14 or 15 dead Janeways.

Oh dear, so bland and boring.
But that's exactly what I mean. They don't hade the guts to simply restore him to normal and make him a Starfleet officer again which I believe was the original intention. They are totaly stuck, like turtles in wet concrete in that lousy TNG episode scenario from season 7 when Wesley is ruined and behade like a spoiled brat.

The point is that they haven't moved on to anything. They are stuck in a bad scenario and lacks the will and maybe even the skill to do something about it. Just like turtles who are stuck in a pool of wet concrete or quicksand.

Or maybe they just decided they liked the idea of Wesley as a Traveler.

This could have been a great ending instead of the dreadul Endgame and the episode fading out with the old Heart song "Crazy On You" but with the lyrics "Crazy For Q" instead.

As Voyager flies past the Golden Gate bridge amid fireworks, of course.

If they aren't involved at all and don't care about Wang's or any other former actors thoughts, then Alternative 2 might be the correct answer. The theory that recent showrunners or even authors of books are very reluctant when it comes to correcting errors from previous series.

Remember, if I was asked to guess, I would still say that Harry's failure to appear is due to innocent reasons. The idea that Garrett Wang is the victim of a three-decade conspiracy carried out by multiple sets of Trek franchise runners remains quite farfetched, even though there is evidence supporting it. In Mythbusters terms, this is Plausible, nothing more.

Conspiracy theories are fun, but don't take them too seriously.

Strange that Wang himself proposes the "eternal ensign" when he has explained his dissatisfaction over how his character was handled for many years.

The video it happens in explains how Harry got his revenge against Starfleet's upper echelons for not promoting him, and I think it's posted on a previous page. If I can find it, I'll link it.

EDIT: It's back a few pages. Here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/garrett-wang.305402/page-50

GEORDI LA FORGE: "I had a chat with Lieutenant Kim on Voyager and he confirms my suspicion about what's going on on Cardassia now.

Good, but if this is PIC's time frame, let's make it Captain Kim. If he's still a mere lieutenant 20+ years after Voyager's return, he enjoyed a lackluster career, probably dragged down by that seven year ensignhood and the rather unjustified reprimand. Think Blue-shirt Picard in "Tapestry".

Is it really so hard to come up with something like that in a simple dialogue?

You did it, and I've done it as well, seen here:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-to-resolve-6-voyager-inconsistencies-in-85-seconds.309089/
You'd think that professionals could do better than just random Trekkies like us... but maybe not.

And I do have a plot about Seska too. What if there was a real Bajoran Seska out there? Someone who was captured by the Cardassians and they used an Obsidian Order operative to became a copy of her. What happened then to the real Seska?

Probably dead... but who knows? Maybe she was put to work as a comfort woman or something. The Cardies did seem to like that sort of thing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Voyager wound up on Eyewitness News at Nine the one time they gave him command when it mattered.

Promotion Proof.

 

[Oddish]

Voyager wound up on Eyewitness News at Nine the one time they gave him command when it mattered.

Promotion Proof.

He disobeyed orders, but wound up saving the captain and first officer's lives in the process. Tuvok violated orders to do the exact same thing, and a year later, he's a lieutenant commander.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh dear, so bland and boring.

Hardly.

Starfleet is not the only exciting life.

The point is that they haven't moved on to anything. They are stuck in a bad scenario and lacks the will and maybe even the skill to do something about it. Just like turtles who are stuck in a pool of wet concrete or quicksand.

But you don't want them to move on either. Going back to Starfleet is almost a restoration of the status quo.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He disobeyed orders, but wound up saving the captain and first officer's lives in the process. Tuvok violated orders to do the exact same thing, and a year later, he's a lieutenant commander.

Everyone on that ship except Neelix, Kes and Naomi swore an Oath to accept death before they would contaminate any rudimentary civilization with dangerously illegal knowledge.

Also every choice they made, was the wrong choice, which contributed to the certain destruction of 29th century Earth, until the Doctor got the Mobile Emitter, which in of itself was just another time-crime perpetrated by these careless nogoodiks.

 

[at Quark's]

He disobeyed orders, but wound up saving the captain and first officer's lives in the process. Tuvok violated orders to do the exact same thing, and a year later, he's a lieutenant commander.

JANEWAY: I set the same standards for all my officers.
CHAKOTAY: If I object to one of your decisions you'll hear me out, even insist I speak up.
JANEWAY: You're my First Officer, he's an Ensign. He hasn't earned the right to question my orders, whatever his personal views.

So apparently, Janeway demands blind obedience from lower ranking officers, punishing them if they disobey orders, even if it saves their own lives, but higher officers have 'earned the right' to question her orders, and might get a reward when they disobey orders to save their captain's lives?

 

[Oddish]

Everyone on that ship except Neelix, Kes and Naomi swore an Oath to accept death before they would contaminate any rudimentary civilization with dangerously illegal knowledge.

No guarantee that the Maquis did anything of the sort. They were impressed into service, in case you forgot.

So apparently, Janeway demands blind obedience from lower ranking officers, punishing them if they disobey orders, even if it saves their own lives, but higher officers have 'earned the right' to question her orders, and might get a reward when they disobey orders to save their captain's lives?

Seems rather hypocritical, doesn't it?

 

[Guy Gardener]

After Tom was demoted, B'Elanna was 4th in line for the big chair, if she has passed the Bridge Officers exam. During Resolutions, she was 3rd Officer.

Hey?

If Starfleet is just a private club with guiding rules that are not legally binding, then the only way they can send you to jail for breaking the Prime Directive is consensualy.

 

[Oddish]

If we're going to declare that an officer who violates the Prime Directive can never be promoted, ever... why were Tuvok and Tom promoted? For that matter, why was Janeway?

 

[Lynx]

Hardly.
Starfleet is not the only exciting life.

For us who watch the show, it actually is. At least in this case.

But you don't want them to move on either. Going back to Starfleet is almost a restoration of the status quo.

Which is much better than wasting good characters who can be used for better and more interesting purposes.

Or maybe they just decided they liked the idea of Wesley as a Traveler.

It was so incredible silly. They could have come up with something better than that mumbo-jumbo. Not to mention that he acted like a spoiled brat in the whole episode.
But at least they didn't turn him into a lunatic and killed him off.

As Voyager flies past the Golden Gate bridge amid fireworks, of course.

That would have been a great ending of the show.
However, I would have liked to see Our Heroes being received by families and friends.

Not to mention my favorite scenario, when newly promoted Harry Kim burst into his parents house, singing the old Runaways and Joan Jett song "Cherry Bomb" with the altered lyrics:

"Hello Mum, Hello Dad, I'm your D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-Duplicate Son!
(You have to excuse poor Harry, He had of course celebrated the homecoming and his promotion with Tom and his friends, drinking some real stuff.)

Remember, if I was asked to guess, I would still say that Harry's failure to appear is due to innocent reasons. The idea that Garrett Wang is the victim of a three-decade conspiracy carried out by multiple sets of Trek franchise runners remains quite farfetched, even though there is evidence supporting it. In Mythbusters terms, this is Plausible, nothing more.

Conspiracy theories are fun, but don't take them too seriously.

I'm always careful when it comes to conspiracy theories.
In this case, well maybe it's because of the second alternative which I mentioned earlier.

Good, but if this is PIC's time frame, let's make it Captain Kim. If he's still a mere lieutenant 20+ years after Voyager's return, he enjoyed a lackluster career, probably dragged down by that seven year ensignhood and the rather unjustified reprimand. Think Blue-shirt Picard in "Tapestry".

I was more thinking in "near time events after the Homecoming" in which most of my story scenarios takes place.

As for PIC, I try to avoid the scenarios from that gloomy show as much as possible.

As for "Blue-shirt Picard" in the excellent episode Tapestry, I really felt sorry for poor Jean-Luc when I watched that episode. What a horrible fate.

I think that if I had the opportunity to live my life again, then I would change very little annd I would be very careful not to make some changes which would turn everything on to a new course. Some of the bad things I've encountered had led to better things later on so therefore I wouldn't like to mess that up.

You did it, and I've done it as well, seen here:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-to-resolve-6-voyager-inconsistencies-in-85-seconds.309089/
You'd think that professionals could do better than just random Trekkies like us... but maybe not.

Thank you very much for nice comment about my absolute masterpiece The Shuttle And Torpedo Building Team!

(Well, not exactly as magnificent as saving Kes with a few sentences but almost close! )

One reason that professionals don't do better in cases like this is that they are mostly hired hands while we are the enthusiasts who cares for our favorite shows and our favorite characters.

Probably dead... but who knows? Maybe she was put to work as a comfort woman or something. The Cardies did seem to like that sort of thing.

That's a possibility. The Cardassians weren't particularily nice to the Bajorans.
Anyway, it's an interesting thing which I wish had been brought up in some book or series.

There were a lot of loose ends from TNG, DS9 and VOY which I would have kiked to see some follow-up on in later series. Unfortunately, Berman and his gang went for a retro series instead and that decision actually ruined Star Trek.

 

[Oddish]

There were a lot of loose ends from TNG, DS9 and VOY which I would have kiked to see some follow-up on in later series. Unfortunately, Berman and his gang went for a retro series instead and that decision actually ruined Star Trek.

And it wasn't even a retro series. I mean, transporters, the standard phaser/photon torpedo armament, the Federation is a thing before it even exists, time travel. This wasn't retro, it was more of the same.

 

[Mudd]

Getting out of the 24th century saved Trek, actually. Just took a while.

 

[fireproof78]

For us who watch the show, it actually is. At least in this case.

As if I don't watch the show?

Which is much better than wasting good characters who can be used for better and more interesting purposes.

Interesting depends on the writer not the career of the character.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If we're going to declare that an officer who violates the Prime Directive can never be promoted, ever... why were Tuvok and Tom promoted? For that matter, why was Janeway?

Admiral Daddy.

 

[Farscape One]

He disobeyed orders, but wound up saving the captain and first officer's lives in the process. Tuvok violated orders to do the exact same thing, and a year later, he's a lieutenant commander.

Tuvok was a close friend of Janeway's for years before she got command of Voyager.

Interesting how he was the only Starfleet officer on the ship that got promoted within those 7 years. (Chakotay, B'Elanna, and Tom were not Starfleet officers when Voyager got swept into the Delta Quadrant.)