Garak vs. Obrien, who is Bashirs best friend?

[Laughing Dragon]

I think Bashir enjoys spending time with O’Brien as the latter is earthy….Garak more of an intellectual sparring partner.

As I said they were intellectual equals and that's how it worked for them but Obrien and him were closer with maybe the exception of Bashir helping Garak through his withdrawals which brought them closer together imo, but it never went much further sadly. But their book discussion were still entertaining.

 

[DirectorSloan]

I say O'Brien. I think Garak was useful to give Bashir someone to banter with about literature (at first). Then as they gave Bashir an interest in spy novels and holo programs I think Garak became a vehicle to exercise those muscles. But as for true friendship, it's Miles.

 

[Johnny Luck]

I would say O'Brien is his best friend.

As for Garak, that seems a bit more complicated. I recently saw Andrew Robinson at a GalaxyCon this past summer and the bit about a possible gay relationship between Garak & Bashir was brought up. While there may be slight hints of this in the early episodes of DS9, I'm glad they didn't go this route (although that Lower Decks episode featuring it was great!)

I see Garak more as a teacher/mentor for Bashir especially in the darker areas of morality and authority. For example, I recently re-watched S2 episode "Profit & Loss" wherein Garak and Bashir were having a discussion about a person's fealty to themselves (and the truth) vs fealty to the state. Garak would choose the state over a person every time much to Bashir's dismay.

Add in Bashir's later fascination with spies and intrigue and this mentor relationship reaches a new level. Although I have to wonder about Bashir's true motives here though. Being genetically enhanced, Julian played naive more to throw off suspicions so who knows what he may have actually been taking from his conversations with ex Obsidian Order spy Garak.

(If you read some of David Mack's later novels featuring Bashir, Julian seems to have taken some of Garak's teachings to heart)

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I would say O'Brien is his best friend.

As for Garak, that seems a bit more complicated. I recently saw Andrew Robinson at a GalaxyCon this past summer and the bit about a possible gay relationship between Garak & Bashir was brought up. While there may be slight hints of this in the early episodes of DS9, I'm glad they didn't go this route (although that Lower Decks episode featuring it was great!)

I see Garak more as a teacher/mentor for Bashir especially in the darker areas of morality and authority. For example, I recently re-watched S2 episode "Profit & Loss" wherein Garak and Bashir were having a discussion about a person's fealty to themselves (and the truth) vs fealty to the state. Garak would choose the state over a person every time much to Bashir's dismay.

Add in Bashir's later fascination with spies and intrigue and this mentor relationship reaches a new level. Although I have to wonder about Bashir's true motives here though. Being genetically enhanced, Julian played naive more to throw off suspicions so who knows what he may have actually been taking from his conversations with ex Obsidian Order spy Garak.

(If you read some of David Mack's later novels featuring Bashir, Julian seems to have taken some of Garak's teachings to heart)

Well thought out. Thanks. But, Bashir was acting innocent, though... I think it was more that he did not trust him and I don't see why that would make Bashir naive. I don't see how being genetically enhanced make it any less resistant. Its Star fleet that thought the genetically enhanced all evil not him. Also, I am thinking that he as a dedicated Star Fleet officer and having a natural suspicion towards Circassians. even if he was excited about being approached by THEE spy. I just think he was acting like a Star Fleet officer on his guard like everyone else and not everyone else could match his intellect with maybe the exception of Dax but that was complicated in its own way.

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

I've seen clips from an old interview with Andrew Robinson where he discussed the fact that he intentionally played Garak as having a sexual/romantic interest in Bashir. I enjoy the relationship they have whether it's platonic, romantic, or intellectual, but it seems pretty inarguable that Bashir and O'Brien are closer friends given how much time they spend together and how hard it is for them to say goodbye when O'Brien leaves the station.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I've seen clips from an old interview with Andrew Robinson where he discussed the fact that he intentionally played Garak as having a sexual/romantic interest in Bashir. I enjoy the relationship they have whether it's platonic, romantic, or intellectual, but it seems pretty inarguable that Bashir and O'Brien are closer friends given how much time they spend together and how hard it is for them to say goodbye when O'Brien leaves the station.

Don't say that here. If you have seen the rest of this thread.

Anyway, I agree on the Garashir relationship. And yes, Miles is def his best friend, but I still wonder if Garak wasn't slowly phased out, he would be up there with his other close friends. Even at the end of the series Garak told Bashir he was a good friend.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Don't say that here. If you have seen the rest of this thread.

What is controversial? We've all acknowledged what Andrew Robinson said about how he approached the character. We also know what has been said by producers and what both Robinson and Siddig thought of Garak's development.

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

I'm not saying I think the only way to read or appreciate the Garak/Bashir relationship is as romantic, FWIW -- I'm not particularly strongly invested in shipping and I just enjoy the way Robinson & Siddig played off each other in those roles.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Speaking as a slash fic writer (although admittedly not for DS9) I think there can - and should - be room for interpretation when it comes to relationships on the various shows. Especially with Garak/Bashir since the actors themselves embrace the pairing and have spoken about it on numerous occasions. This always helps tremendously.

In the end all comes down to the old rule of fan fic tho: Don't like, don't read.

 

[fireproof78]

Romantic relationships, either implied or actual, are not Trek's strong suit. Garak/Bashir are no exception.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

What is controversial? We've all acknowledged what Andrew Robinson said about how he approached the character. We also know what has been said by producers and what both Robinson and Siddig thought of Garak's development.

Holy heck... I was the starter of this thread and the first to link to Robinsons interviews in this thread when it became a controversy and for a reason. Read the whole thing. What's the matter with people in this thread? When people are being obtuse, they are just not paying attention. Oh, and that does not mean everyone in this thread either. I never singled you out at all. "We all" is very arrogant. Go back and read the entire thread and then you can feel foolish. Who says stuff like this?

Romantic relationships, either implied or actual, are not Trek's strong suit. Garak/Bashir are no exception.

This should never became it at all. It all was because someone chimed in that Garak was obviously Bashirs lover and Miles was his best friend. I chimed in and it led to a debate about ficcers and then I provided that technically it was actually partly canon because of the actors with links.

I'm not saying I think the only way to read or appreciate the Garak/Bashir relationship is as romantic, FWIW -- I'm not particularly strongly invested in shipping and I just enjoy the way Robinson & Siddig played off each other in those roles.

Yeah, I like all of that too. Re: fic - Uh, good for you that you are not a shipper...

Actually, I would like that one person that voted for Garak and the two that can't decide to chime in, lol.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Just some food for thought of the whole "controversial" idea: Even on this board posting slash fic appears to be banned IIRC. A Garak/Bashir fic would therefore not be allowed here. That should give an indication of how this whole idea is indeed STILL a controversial subject in quite a few places. Including here.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Holy heck... I was the starter of this thread and the first to link to Robinsons interviews in this thread when it became a controversy and for a reason. Read the whole thing. What's the matter with people in this thread? When people are being obtuse, they are just not paying attention. Oh, and that does not mean everyone in this thread either. I never singled you out at all. "We all" is very arrogant. Go back and read the entire thread and then you can feel foolish. Who says stuff like this?


This should never became it at all. It all was because someone chimed in that Garak was obviously Bashirs lover and Miles was his best friend. I chimed in and it led to a debate about ficcers and then I provided that technically it was actually partly canon because of the actors with links.


Yeah, I like all of that too. Re: fic - Uh, good for you that you are not a shipper...

Actually, I would like that one person that voted for Garak and the two that can't decide to chime in, lol.

We have been discussing Garak's sexuality for decades. We have all read what Andy Robinson has said about how he approached the first episode. One quote is not a slam dunk: it is still debatable. Ira Behr and Robert Wolfe have both admitted that even though they did not interfere with Robinson's performance, they steered stories away from anything that would develop Garak as unambiguously gay. Even Robinson and Siddig have speculated that Garak was saddled with a stalking horse in Ziyal, steering the character in a different direction. I would prefer that the people who post are not regarded negatively when honest differences of opinion arise from conflicting evidence.

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[Lynx]

Holy heck... I was the starter of this thread and the first to link to Robinsons interviews in this thread when it became a controversy and for a reason. Read the whole thing. What's the matter with people in this thread? When people are being obtuse, they are just not paying attention. Oh, and that does not mean everyone in this thread either. I never singled you out at all. "We all" is very arrogant. Go back and read the entire thread and then you can feel foolish. Who says stuff like this?


This should never became it at all. It all was because someone chimed in that Garak was obviously Bashirs lover and Miles was his best friend. I chimed in and it led to a debate about ficcers and then I provided that technically it was actually partly canon because of the actors with links.


Yeah, I like all of that too. Re: fic - Uh, good for you that you are not a shipper...

Actually, I would like that one person that voted for Garak and the two that can't decide to chime in, lol.

It surprises me too.

The thread you started was about "best friends" but unfortunately it turned into some romance squabble.

As for relations, the Trek writers are actually miserable with that. Almos all relationships we have seen seem stale, forced or unrealistic.

Personally i'm not good when it comes to writing about love relations either. But I have the good taste to avoid them if they aren't absolutely necessary for the story I'm writing.

As for the whole Garak-Bashir "romantic relationship", I find it a bit silly, mostly because it never happened!

Garak's great love was a Cardassian woman named Paladine. That was actually why he got in trouble and was exiled on Deep Space Nine.

And Bashir did seem to have a lot of love affairs with women the whole time before getting involved with Ezri Dax.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

We have been discussing Garak's sexuality for decades. We have all read what Andy Robinson has said about how he approached the first episode. One quote is not a slam dunk: it is still debatable. Ira Behr and Robert Wolfe have both admitted that even though they did not interfere with Robinson's performance, they steered stories away from anything that would develop Garak as unambiguously gay. Even Robinson and Siddig have speculated that Garak was saddled with a stalking horse in Ziyal, steering the character in a different direction. I would prefer that the people who post are not regarded negatively when honest differences of opinion arise from conflicting evidence.

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WE who??? I was one. But even that's not everyone. OMG what is this? Did you not read my post? Or latest post? Then there was the person above about anything seen as gay. I am talking about THIS THREAD. NOT in general. This is not even what this thread is supposed to be about. This stuff just sprang from it. The bolded I won't touch at all.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Just some food for thought of the whole "controversial" idea: Even on this board posting slash fic appears to be banned IIRC. A Garak/Bashir fic would therefore not be allowed here. That should give an indication of how this whole idea is indeed STILL a controversial subject in quite a few places. Including here.

Thats terrible. Canon or not in debate I think that's wrong. Stories about two non-canon men should be as acceptable as non-canon het paintings. If they want to paint it in that light to hide their homophobia. Not saying all people who do not want anything outside of canon pairings have ulterior motives. Do they allow het? It seems to be the opposite of what Trek is supposed to be about. It took them forever to have an openly gay couple. Though, I am not a follower of anything post TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY. If you cannot even write a story about them, huh. This place isn't Trek then. I hope I don't get banned but a mod did point out that Garak himself stated that he played him gay in his own words. You sure it's not just explicit ones maybe?

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Thats terrible. Canon or not in debate I think that's wrong. Stories about two non-canon men should be as acceptable as non-canon het paintings. If they want to paint it in that light to hide their homophobia. Not saying all people who do not want anything outside of canon pairings have ulterior motives. Do they allow het? It seems to be the opposite of what Trek is supposed to be about. It took them forever to have an openly gay couple. Though, I am not a follower of anything post TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY. If you cannot even write a story about them, huh. This place isn't Trek then. I hope I don't get banned but a mod did point out that Garak himself stated that he played him gay in his own words. You sure it's not just explicit ones maybe?

It's been a long while since I checked, maybe the rules for fic on here have changed now, I don't know. I distinctively remember seeing a "no slash" rule somewhere tho (as in slash in general, not just the explicit version of it). I made a mental note back then to not post my fics here because basically all I write is slash, lol.

It was a thing in a lot of Star Trek places tho. Slashfic was banned for a long, long time, partly because people thought slash automatically equals x-rated and partly because of the "controversy" it brought with it (and still does sometimes). It usually served as a catalyst for arguments because there was always SOMEONE who didn't get the "don't like, don't read" memo and started a "THIS CHARACTER IS NOT GAY, HOW DARE" crusade in the fic comment section. In order to avoid this sort of thing, a lot of places simply banned slashfic altogether. And nope, as far as I remember het fic was never banned anywhere (except for the explicit version, of course). You could post something like Picard/Troi freely, but heaven forbid you posted Picard/Q - even though both pairings are equally non-canon. It's only been a somewhat recent development that people finally started to acknowledge the fandom's history regarding slashfic - among others, it was the Kirk/Spock shippers who kept Star Trek alive back in the day with their fanzines and stories and whatnot. They even gave the term slashfic its name since "slash" refers to the slash between the two character names the Trek fans used back then to distinguish Kirk/Spock fic from friendship fic (which was coded "Kirk&Spock", respectively).

With Garak/Bashir you have the added bonus of the actors actually acknowledging things and even encouraging it. (Same goes for Picard/Q and the respective actors.) I don't know what Nimoy thought of Kirk/Spock, I do remember Shatner being rather offended by the whole thing on more than one occasion. (No real surprise there tho, I guess.)

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

I wouldn't be surprised if there used to be a no-slash rule on this board given how long it's been around, but I'm almost certain it's no longer true -- no erotic or overtly sexual content is allowed regardless of the gender of the parties involved but I'm pretty sure safe-for-work stories with slash pairings are allowed on the fic board.

I think slash stuff is just not super popular here -- from what I can tell a pretty high proportion of the frequent posters are straight men (which is not a complaint or criticism, just an observation) and slash tends to be more popular in fandom spaces that are largely female.

Yeah, I like all of that too. Re: fic - Uh, good for you that you are not a shipper...

Actually, I would like that one person that voted for Garak and the two that can't decide to chime in, lol.

I didn't say that I'm not a shipper, just that I'm not strongly invested in it. I actually quite like Garak/Bashir as a romantic pairing. I just meant that my opinion that O'Brien is Bashir's best friend isn't predicated on my interpretation of Garak and Bashir's relationship as romantic; I think even if they're just friends he's still closer with O'Brien.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Yeah, like I said, it's been a while since I had a look. Maybe the "no slash" rule was abandoned indeed. (If so, good! Maybe I'll post a fic or two here after all, then. Why does this sound like a threat.)

 

[F. King Daniel]

Serious question: Is a friendship true and pure if one person in it (Garak) is actually lusting for the other? Does it make it dishonest? Or do you think he came to accept it was to be in the Prime universe and was happy?