Garak vs. Obrien, who is Bashirs best friend?

[Shamrock Holmes]

Not canon, but in the TNG/DS9 relaunch crossover novels, Garak has a male life partner/husband, a guy about his age, iirc. I think it was in one of the "Typhon Pact" or "The Fall" novels.

Dr Kelas Parmak.


Referenced in passing in The Die is Cast as Tain's personal physican who was interrogated by Garak, leading to some time in a labor camp.

He and Garak encountered each while working with a volunteer medic unit after the Dominion War and they reconciled, with Parmak later introducing Garek to Alon Ghemor, the leader of Cardassia's fledgeling democratic movement, setting Garak on the path that would eventually led to a term as leader of Cardassia.

In typical Garak style, the exact nature of their relationship is unclear, however he's certainly one of the few people who Garak is emotionally close to, honestly confides in and respects, so while it's unclear whether they are married or even formally romantically involved, there is certainly potential there.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

It is pretty stupid to argue about Garak when it is known he is a notorious liar. All we know are his lies and half - truths and his actionsv(which can be insisnere).

 

[Tosk]

Discussing, not arguing.

 

[Oddish]

DS9's social network was a lot more complicated than other shows. TNG had the seven main characters (eight including Wes), who were by and large friends, with a few will-they/won't they romances. DS9 added one-sided attraction (Odo/Kira for a time, and I think Garak/Bashir as well), complicated feelings (Odo/Quark), and even genuine dislike (Kira and Worf/Quark). And as the characters evolved, sometimes their feelings changed.

So yes, it was entirely conceivable that a character could have two close friendships that were very different in nature. And even that if O'Brien and Bashir hadn't become friends (they didn't get along early on), Garak might have been his closest friend after all.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He said that was the intention of the scene in the first episode. Just because it was one episode does not mean it never happened or wasn't true, the poster said there was never an attraction at all are you being obtuse of homophobic? He even said thit he tried to slip it in but be less obvious and even thought the heads enjoyed it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say in that incredibly long run-on sentence, but no, I am not homophobic. Nothing I wrote was homophobic.

I have maintained a consistent stance: except for the campiness, the writers and producer chose not to keep anything of the sexuality that Andy Robinson put into the character. It was effectively dead ended. There was an episode in which Garak invaded the Bashir's fantasy life, and any sexual attraction never came up.

We can argue that the subtext of Garak'a omnisexuality persisted throughout the series, influencing acting and writing. Subtext is not text. It's commentary on which to reflect more deeply, not plot. ISB has described gay Garak and a relationship between him and Bashir as a great missed opportunity--it wasn't there.

 

[Sim]

Dr Kelas Parmak.


Referenced in passing in The Die is Cast as Tain's personal physican who was interrogated by Garak, leading to some time in a labor camp.

He and Garak encountered each while working with a volunteer medic unit after the Dominion War and they reconciled, with Parmak later introducing Garek to Alon Ghemor, the leader of Cardassia's fledgeling democratic movement, setting Garak on the path that would eventually led to a term as leader of Cardassia.

In typical Garak style, the exact nature of their relationship is unclear, however he's certainly one of the few people who Garak is emotionally close to, honestly confides in and respects, so while it's unclear whether they are married or even formally romantically involved, there is certainly potential there.

Have to admit my memory isn't that good when it comes to the many Trek novels I read, but I believe to remember that they lived together in the same home, if it wasn't even stated openly they have a romantic relationship ... at least I remember I asked myself that question when reading, and left with the answer "yep, they are". But I can't tell what it was that answered the question for me.

However, with Garak being the person he is, I can see many even very complicated attitudes he has towards his sexuality. He might have the opinion that sexual needs or even romance are a weakness, one he won't allow to have control over him. His dialogue with Ziyal quoted above might indicate he might have a very low opinion about himself when it comes to romance, and honestly didn't want to hurt Ziyal, because he surprisingly cared about her. And/or just because he is -- not just incapable of, but consciously unwilling -- to engage in the weakness of romance, he doesn't allow himself to even think in these terms. Doesn't mean he can't play with flirting, as he plays with everything else concerning other people.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Have to admit my memory isn't that good when it comes to the many Trek novels I read, but I believe to remember that they lived together in the same home,

For a while, yes.

However, with Garak being the person he is, I can see many even very complicated attitudes he has towards his sexuality.

What doesn't Garak have a complicated attitude towards?

He might have the opinion that sexual needs or even romance are a weakness, one he won't allow to have control over him.

Seems plausible.

And/or just because he is -- not just incapable of, but consciously unwilling -- to engage in the weakness of romance, he doesn't allow himself to even think in these terms.

Again, I'd go with that.

Doesn't mean he can't play with flirting, as he plays with everything else concerning other people.

Definately.

As he once imfamously said. "Everything is true... especially the lies."

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Living together is not nessesarily anything sexual (even sleeping in one bed doesn't have to be).

In my stories, Kes ended up living in one home with Tom Paris and B'Elanna Torres. She has no sexual/romantic relationships with either of them.

This os, honestly, rare in modern times, but it does happen.

 

[Sim]

Living together is not nessesarily anything sexual (even sleeping in one bed doesn't have to be).

In my stories, Kes ended up living in one home with Tom Paris and B'Elanna Torres. She has no sexual/romantic relationships with either of them.

This os, honestly, rare in modern times, but it does happen.

Yes, especially someone like Garak, who is a most unconventional character, might make very unconventional choices about how to live his life. Seems plausible to me.

 

[Tomalak]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say in that incredibly long run-on sentence, but no, I am not homophobic. Nothing I wrote was homophobic.

I have maintained a consistent stance: except for the campiness, the writers and producer chose not to keep anything of the sexuality that Andy Robinson put into the character. It was effectively dead ended. There was an episode in which Garak invaded the Bashir's fantasy life, and any sexual attraction never came up.

We can argue that the subtext of Garak'a omnisexuality persisted throughout the series, influencing acting and writing. Subtext is not text. It's commentary on which to reflect more deeply, not plot. ISB has described gay Garak and a relationship between him and Bashir as a great missed opportunity--it wasn't there.

But this also applies to his assumed heterosexuality - Ziyal's romantic infatuation is not reciprocated. There's nothing in canon particularly to define his sexuality either way, so it is perfectly valid for us to read into the subtext that the actors injected on occasion.

I wouldn't say it's "canon" that he was hitting on Bashir, but I think it's true that he wanted to give the young doctor the impression that he was.

It certainly worked from his perspective, he got exactly what he needed from Julian in that first episode. Their relationship continued to develop, although not romantically.

The writers expressing regret that they didn't make it more explicitly so doesn't negate that subtext either. If the novels explored that after the show, that's a valid place to go with the character.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But this also applies to his assumed heterosexuality - Ziyal's romantic infatuation is not reciprocated. There's nothing in canon particularly to define his sexuality either way, so it is perfectly valid for us to read into the subtext that the actors injected on occasion.

I wouldn't say it's "canon" that he was hitting on Bashir, but I think it's true that he wanted to give the young doctor the impression that he was.

It certainly worked from his perspective, he got exactly what he needed from Julian in that first episode. Their relationship continued to develop, although not romantically.

The writers expressing regret that they didn't make it more explicitly so doesn't negate that subtext either. If the novels explored that after the show, that's a valid place to go with the character.

Arguably, there are moments that Garak expressed an attraction to a woman: Kira, when she was altered to look Cardassian, Garak paused, gun drawn, to say how ravishing she was. Certainly, Garak, a man well aware of his agency and capable of pushing people away when he wants, allowed Ziyal's affection. And like I said, Garak had many intimate opportunities to say something to Bashir, but didn't.

Saying that Garak was a predominantly heterosexual character erases nothing. Subtext isn't necessarily hidden truth about the text. It can be a commentary that reveals truth beyond the fiction. Frasier and Niles Crane were subtextually a gay couple according to the writers. Their relationship was meant to say something about gay male couples. That doesn't mean that they were incestuous brothers.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Yes, I had a feeling that something like that was somewhat, but couldn't quite pinpoint it.

His comment about "Cardassian" Kira pretty much establish to me Garak is attracted to women.

 

[JesterFace]

Where does the Bashir Garak love interest thing come from?
I didn't feel like the characters were into each other more than friends.

 

[Tosk]

Arguably, there are moments that Garak expressed an attraction to a woman: Kira, when she was altered to look Cardassian

With the point of the line being that she is Cardassian in that scene. So we know that his tastes run to the Cardassian.

Garak also describes Rugal as handsome, so do we take that into account or do we discard it for some reason?

In my opinion, simply acknowledging someone's physical beauty does not prove someone's sexuality either way.

 

[Oddish]

Where does the Bashir Garak love interest thing come from?
I didn't feel like the characters were into each other more than friends.

Andrew Robinson initially played Garak as being majorly interested in Bashir, and continued to do so until the writers told him to tone it down.

 

[Tosk]

Andrew Robinson initially played Garak as being majorly interested in Bashir, and continued to do so until the writers told him to tone it down.

They never told him to "tone it down", they simply didn't write any specific follow up to what he was trying to lay down.

From a Trekmovie interview:

At that time, they were still decades away from having an openly gay character in the franchise. Did any writer or director or producer ever talk to you about how you were playing it? Fans were picking up on your performance choice back in the 90s and asking the question on is Garak gay?

[Laughs] Oh yeah. I broadcast it as strongly as I could. But you know, they never really followed up on it, we never even had a discussion about it. Deep Space Nine was already at right angles to the Star Trek franchise. It was a different kind of Star Trek show. And I think that suddenly to bring on an openly gay alien, who, who was having this relationship with Dr. Bashir. I think that was maybe a bridge too far. I’m guessing at this, but I, but I think that may be it.

But nor did they ever tell you to stop or tone it down, did they?

No, they didn’t. I think they liked it. I think Ira and the writers loved that it just added to the mystery of the guy. What is he? Who is he? Is he this or is he that? I think it just reinforced what they were already trying to do with the character.

Interview: Andrew Robinson On Falling In Love With Garak’s Ambiguity In ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’

"What I added in that first episode was a sexual ambiguity about Garak," says Robinson.

trekmovie.com

 

[Lynx]

Where does the Bashir Garak love interest thing come from?
I didn't feel like the characters were into each other more than friends.

No, it weren't more than that.

I never saw any sexual attraction between them when I first watched the episode where Bashir and Garak met.

Most likely it was the actor's later comments about the subject which triggered the ideas.

Or just something that happened because of people who always tries to pair off characters in one way or another.

Yes, I had a feeling that something like that was somewhat, but couldn't quite pinpoint it.

His comment about "Cardassian" Kira pretty much establish to me Garak is attracted to women.

Yes, and Bashir is a womanizer too.

But this also applies to his assumed heterosexuality - Ziyal's romantic infatuation is not reciprocated. There's nothing in canon particularly to define his sexuality either way, so it is perfectly valid for us to read into the subtext that the actors injected on occasion.

I wouldn't say it's "canon" that he was hitting on Bashir, but I think it's true that he wanted to give the young doctor the impression that he was.

It certainly worked from his perspective, he got exactly what he needed from Julian in that first episode. Their relationship continued to develop, although not romantically.

The writers expressing regret that they didn't make it more explicitly so doesn't negate that subtext either. If the novels explored that after the show, that's a valid place to go with the character.

As I wrote in my reply to Jesterface above, Inever saw any sexual attraction between them when I first watched the episode where Bashir and Garak met.

Most likely it was the actor's later comments about the subject which triggered the ideas.

Or just something that happened because of people who always tries to pair off characters in one way or another.

To be really blunt and honest, I think that my idea for a story about Garak returning to the station Deep Space Nine as a an Ambassador to the Federation or some liasion to both those worlds and occsionally performing as "Iron Garak" at Quark's or Vic's lounge for his own and othher friends amusement is more plausible and realistic than a relationship between Bashir and Garak.



But for those who want romance and relations, sometimes a little voice in my head whispers to me about pairing off my two all-time Star Trek favorite characters.

 

[Tomalak]

With the point of the line being that she is Cardassian in that scene. So we know that his tastes run to the Cardassian.

Garak also describes Rugal as handsome, so do we take that into account or do we discard it for some reason?

In my opinion, simply acknowledging someone's physical beauty does not prove someone's sexuality either way.

Yeah exactly, they have an antagonistic relationship and he's needling her about looking better as a Cardassian, because he knows she'll hate it.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

My gosh! NO ONE said he could not be attracted to women! No one! Bi, fluid etc. Robinson himself said he played Garak as attracted to him and that gender was not even in his mind. You say he may have acted gay to use Bashir or rattle him and because of romantic relations are weaknesses but don't say that for Ziyal. Since he played him gay in the beginning in Bi and Fluid is under the queer/gay umbrella. It does not matter if it did not pan out and handwaving the writers and actors because you don't respect their story choices any less canon just like the Uhura/Kirk kiss less canon. I am a bit disappointed here. I thought that people would at least admit that Garak was attracted to Bashir in the opening scene even if they prefer him with women. Yikes! I am sorry. I did not even want it to turn into this. This thread was about "Friendship."

They never told him to "tone it down", they simply didn't write any specific follow up to what he was trying to lay down.

From a Trekmovie interview:

At that time, they were still decades away from having an openly gay character in the franchise. Did any writer or director or producer ever talk to you about how you were playing it? Fans were picking up on your performance choice back in the 90s and asking the question on is Garak gay?

[Laughs] Oh yeah. I broadcast it as strongly as I could. But you know, they never really followed up on it, we never even had a discussion about it. Deep Space Nine was already at right angles to the Star Trek franchise. It was a different kind of Star Trek show. And I think that suddenly to bring on an openly gay alien, who, who was having this relationship with Dr. Bashir. I think that was maybe a bridge too far. I’m guessing at this, but I, but I think that may be it.

But nor did they ever tell you to stop or tone it down, did they?

No, they didn’t. I think they liked it. I think Ira and the writers loved that it just added to the mystery of the guy. What is he? Who is he? Is he this or is he that? I think it just reinforced what they were already trying to do with the character.

Interview: Andrew Robinson On Falling In Love With Garak’s Ambiguity In ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’

"What I added in that first episode was a sexual ambiguity about Garak," says Robinson.

trekmovie.com

Thats what I said already. That he thought they liked it. He said that in the link I provided.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say in that incredibly long run-on sentence, but no, I am not homophobic. Nothing I wrote was homophobic.

I have maintained a consistent stance: except for the campiness, the writers and producer chose not to keep anything of the sexuality that Andy Robinson put into the character. It was effectively dead ended. There was an episode in which Garak invaded the Bashir's fantasy life, and any sexual attraction never came up.

We can argue that the subtext of Garak'a omnisexuality persisted throughout the series, influencing acting and writing. Subtext is not text. It's commentary on which to reflect more deeply, not plot. ISB has described gay Garak and a relationship between him and Bashir as a great missed opportunity--it wasn't there.

What run on sentences? Can't recognize punctuation? There are periods, commas and question marks. People said that Garak was never attracted to him because it did not pan out and that it did not count. That is what I am saying. I can't be clearer in all my posts. Who cares if he wasn't acting attracted to Bashir in 'Our Man Bashir'?. I was talking about his intro.
---

Also, as far as confidants go... Bashir is a Starfleet officer. So, I can see why he would not be as close in that way with Bashir. Probably why his friendship with O'Brien worked out better too. Also, Bashir revealed his enhancements to O'Brien out of all his friends (that's ultimately why I chose him). Not saying Garak would not be fine with it. He is a Cardassian. Not a human. Still sad to see Garak did not get any votes.

And, what this thread has turned into is a big old .

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

I said that Garak can be bisexual. Just there's no canon evidence for it. Nor against it.
Essentially, it's choose your pick.