Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

[Miss Chicken]

Also, rewatching again, I see another mistake the writers made. In this episode Jaime tells Brienne that he strangled his own cousin. But he didn’t. He headbutted his cousin and then bashed him with his shackles. Then young Karstark entered to check why the cousin was convulsing and Jaime strangled Karstark.

 

[StefanM]

During he negotiations with Cersei the unsullied army was laughably small, they should have waited for Jon and the rest of the army. Cersie should have attacked them, but I guess the dragon (while not present) is still a good deterrent.

Exactly!
That absolutely made no sense.
First: How could Daenerys and her small army get so close to Kings Landing? Her fleet was destroyed, Euron's fleet would have stopped her from getting over from the island to the continent. How did they get there?
Second: Yes, Cersei should not only have killed Missandei, she should have slaughtered them all. Daenerys and just her 100-200 Unsullied? Just send 200 soldiers of the Golden Army against them. Or 2.000. Or even the full 20.000. Why not? The whole threat to her throne would be gone, Daenerys dead. Okay, maybe Jon Snow would come for revenge. But without Daenerys and her Dragons? No REAL problem.
Okay, maybe she feared, there was a dragon waiting for the battle...
Third: She should AT LEAST have killed Tyrion. One Arrow! That was all she needed. She promised a lot zu Bronn for eliminating him (and Jaime). Bronn obviously didn't do his job. So why not do it herself? There was NOTHING, Tyrion or Daenerys could have done against it. Just like Missandei's death....

I really HOPE, the next episode will start exactly at this point, not a few days later at Dragonstone.
I hope, it's just a trap by Cersei. Let Daenerys came over, have her on an open field - and then let's destroy her.
Maybe there is an explanation, that Daenerys had waited for another 2 weeks, and Jon with his army (and Drogon!) is her back-up. Just when the Golden Army storms out of Kings Landing, Drogon rises from behind the hills, Jon riding on his back, and burns Cerseis troops.
Anything else would just be stupid. Why should Cersei just let them go? So let's hope the best for next week

 

[Thestral]

Bad things happen. This was the episode I dreaded. The previous episode was a triumph. This ep was more like real life.

This sounds like (and played out like) an excuse that an angry gamemaster would give to force his precious plot back on the rails when the players don't do things the way he wants them to.

Anyone outraged by anything on Game of Thrones (a show that literally got famous for subverting tropes) hasn't been paying attention or something... I can't really explain it.

It wasn't just subverting tropes and outraging people - it was subverting tropes and outraging people in a way that you didn't see coming and that made sense when you looked at it. I wasn't shocked by what happened like the Red Wedding, or Ned's death, or the Great Sept, or....

I was left cold, and annoyed. I didn't see Euron coming, but who could have called that? Missadei on the other hand was totally predictable and played out exactly as I called it (except for the chop instead of a push). My anger isn't at the characters, but the writers, and the reactions I'm hearing about, from people that are upset, seem to be in that direction. Something has clearly shifted.

There are interviewers saying that this is awkward, but it was forced by the shortened season...

Maybe don't do it then.

 

[Starkers]

Not sure why people are annoyed at the direction Daenerys’ character is heading in, they have been seeding this for some time. She’s justified some terrible things because they’re for the greater good, but going right back to her white saviour moment when all the peoples of Mereen (I think?) held her above their heads it’s been clear to me that she’s not so much a good person, as one who enjoys the adoration that comes along with being perceived as a good person.

The saddest thing about Daenerys for me is that she could have remained in Essos and ruled as a mighty queen but she's probably thrown everything away chasing the Iron Throne in a country where people don't see her as special in the way the peoples of Essos did.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

So, any guesses as to what Euron is surprised at seeing in the preview -- more dragons hatched from eggs that Drogon laid secretly in Essos a few seasons ago or has Bran warged into the Kraken? The latter dispatching Euron would seem more appropriate but it's unlikely.

ETA: I wonder why gunpowder doesn't exist in GoT. It was used in real-world European medieval warfare as early as the 14th century and, obviously, much earlier in China.

 

[Cyrus]

So, any guesses as to what Euron is surprised at seeing in the preview -- more dragons hatched from eggs that Drogon laid secretly in Essos a few seasons ago or has Bran warged into the Kraken? The latter dispatching Euron would seem more appropriate but it's unlikely.

I assumed its the remaining dragon coming to revenge its sibling. People online think it's the dragon that seemingly died last episode but is still alive. Either way Euron is going to get his comeuppance.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The saddest thing about Daenerys for me is that she could have remained in Essos and ruled as a mighty queen but she's probably thrown everything away chasing the Iron Throne in a country where people don't see her as special in the way the peoples of Essos did.

I've thought about this ever since she left Meereen but especially during this season. She has lost so much for a land and people that don't care about her and doesn't want her.

Mind you, she had troubles in Meereen, too, but that was because of the Masters (complete with rubbish beards, wait, wrong universe) whereas the people generally loved her. Well, except the whole dragons burning children alive apart. Okay, the point is, as you said, she had a better footing there and it wouldn't have cost her nearly as much to leave.

And why did she leave? Because of all those stories Viserys feed her as a child about birthrights (even if he was just talking about himself). That's right, that slimey bastard is still wrecking havoc far beyond the grave.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Not sure why people are annoyed at the direction Daenerys’ character is heading in, they have been seeding this for some time. She’s justified some terrible things because they’re for the greater good, but going right back to her white saviour moment when all the peoples of Mereen (I think?) held her above their heads it’s been clear to me that she’s not so much a good person, as one who enjoys the adoration that comes along with being perceived as a good person.

The saddest thing about Daenerys for me is that she could have remained in Essos and ruled as a mighty queen but she's probably thrown everything away chasing the Iron Throne in a country where people don't see her as special in the way the peoples of Essos did.

Wouldn't that be considered an interesting story arc that works very well with a show like this?

Think about it--for about 6 seasons, we are shown Dany as the savior--the one true queen.

In general, her actions were good. Even Tyrion, who is the smartest one of the bunch, felt it. She had the lineage. She started with nothing and built the power. She united so many people to her cause.

And she did good wherever she went.

But in a story that happened so slowly we barely noticed, she has changed. Now, it isn't about doing good things. It isn't about justice and being a better ruler. She wants the power.

She now knows she does not have the true claim to the throne. There is someone with a stronger claim that the people love. Whatever she accomplished in Essos, she doesn't have the hearts and minds of the people of the Seven Kingdoms. Jon could unite the North AND the South and she knows it, yet she presses on with her false claim.

She murdered a father and a son for being loyal to the crown. She wiped out houses when she could have shown leniency.

She wants the throne, and is clearly willing to kill innocents to get it, especially now that Cersei killed her friend.

Is she really any less evil than Cersei?

There have been criticisms of the latter seasons, but I think this turn of events is fascinating. It's a great swerve.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

It wasn't just subverting tropes and outraging people - it was subverting tropes and outraging people in a way that you didn't see coming and that made sense when you looked at it. I wasn't shocked by what happened like the Red Wedding, or Ned's death, or the Great Sept, or....

I was left cold, and annoyed. I didn't see Euron coming, but who could have called that? Missadei on the other hand was totally predictable and played out exactly as I called it (except for the chop instead of a push). My anger isn't at the characters, but the writers, and the reactions I'm hearing about, from people that are upset, seem to be in that direction. Something has clearly shifted.

There is subverting expectations and then there is doing things for superficial shock value. Benioff and the other guy only knew how to subvert expectations because they were taking those subversions from the books. Now they don't have those to fall back on and they clearly have no fucking clue as to how to subvert anything.

 

[StefanM]

She now knows she does not have the true claim to the throne. There is someone with a stronger claim that the people love. Whatever she accomplished in Essos, she doesn't have the hearts and minds of the people of the Seven Kingdoms. Jon could unite the North AND the South and she knows it, yet she presses on with her false claim.

that hasn't really changed from the beginning. "True claim to the throne"? Yes, after season 1 she had that. But not from the beginning. Viserys was the real heir to the throne, but Daenerys decided, he was not worth it. She always considered only herself worth being the king/queen. So it was totally okay for her, to let the Dothraki kill him; to make her officially the (Targaryen) heir to the throne.
Now the same: Jon is okay to be her partner - as long as he stays #2 behind her, bows his knee for the north, and accepts her as his queen. But suddenly, she learns, HE is the right king, HE is the real heir. So what is she doing? She orders him, not to tell anyone about his real place. She wouldn't accept anyone else but herself.
Not because she is in line (Jon belongs in front of her), but because she decides. And in her opionion, only she is worth - whatever great thinks Jon did.

She murdered a father and a son for being loyal to the crown. She wiped out houses when she could have shown leniency.

In this point, In think, Daenerys was right. What else could she have done? There was no real chance to take prisoners. Let them return? Give Cersei some power back?
No, they were enemies. They had the chance to declare, that they would not support Cersei anymore. But they decided to stay Daenerys' enemy. So what could she do?
Just like Robb beheading Lord Karstark. Robb lost House Karstark, but what else could he have done? Accept it? That Karstark acted against his orders? Hard to take him serious anymore.

 

[Scout101]

There is subverting expectations and then there is doing things for superficial shock value. Benioff and the other guy only knew how to subvert expectations because they were taking those subversions from the books. Now they don't have those to fall back on and they clearly have no fucking clue as to how to subvert anything.

This is it, or somewhere along those lines. Things got less nuanced when the book material ran out. For a while they could still shuffle in the same direction while taking liberties, but now it's the endgame. They are trying to force the ending that GRRM laid out, but they didn't really lay the groundwork for the full payoff so things feel a bit cheap and off...

 

[Kirk Prime]

You remember that a lot of the Aliens had Amnesty?

They were legal.

that hasn't really changed from the beginning. "True claim to the throne"? Yes, after season 1 she had that. But not from the beginning. Viserys was the real heir to the throne, but Daenerys decided, he was not worth it. She always considered only herself worth being the king/queen. So it was totally okay for her, to let the Dothraki kill him; to make her officially the (Targaryen) heir to the throne.
Now the same: Jon is okay to be her partner - as long as he stays #2 behind her, bows his knee for the north, and accepts her as his queen. But suddenly, she learns, HE is the right king, HE is the real heir. So what is she doing? She orders him, not to tell anyone about his real place. She wouldn't accept anyone else but herself.
Not because she is in line (Jon belongs in front of her), but because she decides. And in her opionion, only she is worth - whatever great thinks Jon did.

You are right actually, but I'm not sure the royal rules of succession, but wouldn't Jon have a better claim to the throne than even Viserys? Jon is the first born son of the first born son. Wouldn't that trump any claim of the second born son? I don't know the rules, but doesn't that happen in the UK?

The difference between Jon and Viserys also is that Jon is a much better person.

I think in the earlier seasons, Dany WAS worthy. But she has let the lust for power corrupt her, and now, she is no better than anyone. The conversation Varys and Tyrion had about Jon not wanting the throne making him the most worthy was spot on.

 

[Scout101]

It's a middle finger to viewers because it takes a giant shit on characters like Jon and Dany and renders numerous storylines and character relationships a colossal waste of time.

Literally a week ago you told people to STFU about that exact complaint when the White Walker storyline evaporated and didn't play out as expected. Pretty smugly. Now in the very next episode YOU got YOUR expectations subverted and you're butthurt about it? Come on, dude.

And the more you complain about the angry pitchfork mob on the internet that's upset and demands a different ending, the funnier it is. 'Several people' on the internet means exactly nothing. Tons of people hate Discovery, tons love it, and most are in the middle, but the show carries on and everyone's checks clear on Fridays. This show has 2 episodes left, they probably aren't going on hiatus to rewrite and reshoot because a wannabe fiction expert is upset his expectations aren't being met.

You can always tune out if you want, vote with your wallet.

 

[StefanM]

@Kirk Prime:
Yes, absolutely. Jon would clearly be #1.
Children of the first son are always before the siblings of the first son.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Yes, absolutely. Jon would clearly be #1.
Children of the first son are always before the siblings of the first son.

So no matter what, Jon had the strongest claim to the throne--no one knew it.

If Daenerys truly cared about the 7 kingdoms and the people, and doing good things, she should step aside for Jon. But she doesn't. It's about lust for power.

Given that she is willing to kill the people she wants to rule just to get Cersei off a chair, is she really better than Cersei?

 

[StefanM]

So no matter what, Jon had the strongest claim to the throne--no one knew it.

If Daenerys truly cared about the 7 kingdoms and the people, and doing good things, she should step aside for Jon. But she doesn't. It's about lust for power.

Given that she is willing to kill the people she wants to rule just to get Cersei off a chair, is she really better than Cersei?

She doesn't even have to step aside.
As Tyrion said: let the marry and rule together as equals. No problem - except for Daenerys....

 

[137th Gebirg]

People are angered by what Sansa's words imply because said words are being seen as yet another example of the series trivializing the subject of rape.

Some people may be angered about what’s going on with the storyline, but I’m pretty sure there may be more people out there who don’t give two rat turds in a rain barrel that some people are pissed off and are generally okay with how it’s all playing out.

People like me.

Go read the books.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

What I learnt from this episode is that Daenerys really should have gone to Specsavers.

Why the hell was she going to Dragonstone anyway? Did she forget her keys?

 

[eschaton]

Jaime/Brienne supporters are pissed off that he slept with her and then turned around and went back to Cersei.

We have to wait and see here IMHO. I know what the "leaks" say, but he could be returning to kill her. He could get there and have another change of heart at the last minute. Frankly, just happily staying in bed with Brienne is a crappy character ending, in that it doesn't get at the self-loathing which is at the core of Jamie's character. Fundamentally, Jamie is a decent man with a moral core who has convinced himself he's a monster, largely due to growing up in the orbit of his truly monstrous sister.

Jon and Dany supporters are pissed off that the characters have been turned against one another and that Dany is being written to be heading towards insanity.

I am 99% certain that GRRM always intended Dany to be the final antagonist of the series. There is no way that D&D would come up with something like that on their own. It's arguably their fault that they built her up to be more of an admirable character than in the books (where her dark side is more evident) and they didn't spend enough time foreshadowing this, but if Jon and Dany don't get a happy ending, it's because Martin was never writing for that.

Fans of the show's female characters in general are once again lobbing accusations of misogyny and racism against David and Dan for their treatment of Missandei and for Sansa telling The Hound that she wouldn't have been made strong if she'd gone with him (intimating that suffering rape and torture at the hands of Ramsay made her strong).

I'd be a lot more pissed that Missandei was given no character arc across the show save for having a relationship with a eunuch than the causal way in which she is killed.

The Hound's "breaking you in" comment made me wince, but it is in character for him. And Sansa's response was basically identical to the conversation that Jamie and Bran had in the second episode - bad shit happened in the past, but none of the characters would be who they became today without it.

 

[Cyrus]

Why the hell was she going to Dragonstone anyway? Did she forget her keys?

I think that was Tyrion’s plan. The main troops are coming with Jon via road that takes a couple of weeks. A small group of soldiers were going by boats to Dragonstone accompanied by dragons. The small group can get there faster but so what? So they can have a useless conversation with Cersei? Tyrion is not good at war strategy.