Game Of Thrones Season 6 Discussion (Spoilers)

[DigificWriter]

Is that how it works? I thought it was based on parentage not geography.

Here's what the GoT Wiki has to say on the subject under the Terminology section:

The stigma of illegitimacy is so great that all acknowledged bastards born to a noble in Westeros have to identify themselves through a specific surname marking them as a bastard, which varies by region:

• Flowers: The Reach
• Hill: The Westerlands
• Pyke: Iron Islands
• Rivers: The Riverlands
• Sand: Dorne
• Snow: The North
• Stone: The Vale of Arryn
• Storm: The Stormlands
• Waters: The Crownlands

Bastard surnames are dependent on the region a child was born in, i.e. where the mother is from, not where the father is from.

Which possibly invalidates my statement that Jon is technically a Sand; according to that information, he may have been called either Jon Snow OR Jon Sand depending on whether or not it was decided that his mother's homeland (The North) trumped where he was born (Dorne).

 

[Skywalker]

I still don't like "Pyke" as the name for ironborn bastards. "Salt" would have made more sense, I think, and fit better with the other names.

 

[Xerxes82]

I continue to be intrigued by the different interpretations of Sansa. To me, she's clearly being set up as a problem for Jon. As I've mentioned, perhaps not an outright villain, but somebody who is being tempted by offers of power. Her entire "education" from Baelish has been about manipulating and screwing people over, and in spite of knowing Littlefinger can't be trusted, she continues to turn to him EVERY SINGLE TIME something happens. And now he's offered her nearly absolute power at his side, the kind of power that makes sure you don't get hurt again. All the while he continues to turn the screw on the fact that the North is following Jon, when they should be following her. And after everything she's been through, Sansa is still, at heart, prideful. It's been her greatest sin throughout the story. And Baelish knows how to work a sinner.

And the best part? Jon doesn't actually want the power he has, and I suspect he'd give it up to Sansa in a heartbeat if she just opened up to him. All the White Wolf wants is to protect the living from the dead. He can do that as easily with Queen Sansa backing him as he can as King Snow.

Elsewhere, I really just can't wait to see everybody's reaction to Bran. Still alive, and now with his supernatural upgrades, what is his place in the conflict to come? Also, what does he do with the knowledge that Jon is not his brother, but his cousin?

 

[dahj]

I continue to be intrigued by the different interpretations of Sansa. To me, she's clearly being set up as a problem for Jon.

Funny, I got the impression she's being set up as a solution for Jon.
Jon is still a guy who who's very much his (adopted) father's son. He's too honorable to survive unless he has someone beside him with experience in playing "the game".

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It would be disrespectful because Wilko Johnson was battling cancer.

I didn't have a problem with the character being dropped. He didn't serve that big of a role in the books before his training with Jaime and that worked better with Bronn in the show for reasons already described.

They should have at least given an explanation for why he's no longer on Arya's list. Or had some throwaway line mentioning his death. I guess I don't see how recasting him would be disrespectful, in my opinion it's more disrespectful to his work to just drop the character.

I don't know how Sansa is written in the books, but based on the show it seems out of character if she plots against Jon. They're setting it up clearly for Sansa to be Litlefinger's endgame to the throne but in my opinion they have not justified for Sansa to undermine him out of jealousy.

I wonder if Arya goes to King's Landing first to finish off her list or meets up with her family first.

 

[Xerxes82]

Funny, I got the impression she's being set up as a solution for Jon.
Jon is still a guy who who's very much his (adopted) father's son. He's too honorable to survive unless he has someone beside him with experience in playing "the game".

This is an interesting take as well. I definitely agree that Jon would need somebody less Ned-ly to help him steer the ship. But I don't think Jon's endgame lies with him in power. Or at least not in the Seven Kingdoms (I'm increasingly of the opinion that Jon ends the story beyond the wall, assuming he lives. I have a whole theory built on in, but I won't get into it here). Rather, it looks more and more like Jon's role is either exclusively in the battle with the Walkers, or as Dany's Ned. The utterly reliable soldier who can lead armies but has no larger ambitions for the throne. Jorah Mormont played that role for most of the series, but his love for Dany precludes him from serving reliably.

I don't know how Sansa is written in the books, but based on the show it seems out of character if she plots against Jon. They're setting it up clearly for Sansa to be Litlefinger's endgame to the throne but in my opinion they have not justified for Sansa to undermine him out of jealousy.

Really? Her entire arc early on, way back in season one, is built on selling out her family in the name of what she feels she deserves. Remember how she lost her wolf? She's since been beaten, victimized, and shown the reality of the more cynical rules the world truly operates under. She's colder, less dreamy, more aware of the harshness of things. But has she really changed?

I do like that the creators on the show have managed to keep things ambiguous to a degree, however. Keeps the characters more interesting. Usually they shave off shades of gray for the TV version, this time they're not doing that to the same degree.

 

[Klaus]

...loved the ep. I also don't see the Sansa as villain thing, we'll see.

So to recap: House Tyrell is one elderly woman, no one else...
House Lannister is Jaime, perhaps not too old for kids in this world... and Cersei after him...
House Baratheon is nominally Cersei as Robert's wife, in reality Gendry is the only living Baratheon...

All of a sudden, the Starks are the best-off major house in the Seven Kingdoms in terms of future heirs!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Really? Her entire arc early on, way back in season one, is built on selling out her family in the name of what she feels she deserves. Remember how she lost her wolf? She's since been beaten, victimized, and shown the reality of the more cynical rules the world truly operates under. She's colder, less dreamy, more aware of the harshness of things. But has she really changed?

I do like that the creators on the show have managed to keep things ambiguous to a degree, however. Keeps the characters more interesting. Usually they shave off shades of gray for the TV version, this time they're not doing that to the same degree.

My interpretation of her actions in season one was the wish to avoid conflict and controversy rather than selfishness. That's why she didn't want to witness against Joffrey, that's why she was willing to call her father a traitor, that's why she didn't take the Hound up on his offer to take her with him. Sansa does not like making waves.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think Sansa has grown up. She's she's not the dreamy eyed girl with fantasies of handsome princes and favors at tournaments. She's learned some hard lessons, but they don't have to corrupt her.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

A thought occurs regarding Jaqen: Considering we're finally almost caught up with Sam's story in the books and Jaqen is no longer training Arya in Braavos, the show is in the position to continue Jaqen's possible storyline in the books.

So to recap: House Tyrell is one elderly woman, no one else...
House Lannister is Jaime, perhaps not too old for kids in this world... and Cersei after him...
House Baratheon is nominally Cersei as Robert's wife, in reality Gendry is the only living Baratheon...

All of a sudden, the Starks are the best-off major house in the Seven Kingdoms in terms of future heirs!

House Martell doesn't have any legitimate heirs but that doesn't seem to be an issue. Any of the Sand Snakes could marry and produce children right now.

Now that Walder Frey is dead, perhaps Edmure will be released and can retake Riverrun at some point.

Otherwise, I think you're right.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

To be honest, my money's been on Littlefinger to take the Iron Throne all along. Maybe not in the penultimate ending, but somewhere in the Third Act, he's going to win for at least a while. I think Sansa turned him down right now because his path to the Iron Throne is not at all obvious (as opposed to her being against the idea entirely). So Sansa becomes Lady of Winterfell and he marries her as Lord of the Vale and - what? The North doesn't have much in the line of bannermen and soldiers left after Robb's war, and even with the wildlings they are pretty short. The Vale has a goodly amount of knights, but enough to take on the Lannister army, which has been hanging around King's Landing, rested and trained? On top of that, Littlefinger doesn't take power by battles, but by manipulation. Sansa is definitely keeping him in mind ("It's a pretty picture."), but I think they have a good deal of game left. Littlefinger knows that the White Walkers are coming, and he plays the long con so he may be looking down the road at the aftermath. I don't see Sansa betraying Jon, and I think the Northmen choosing him over her is pretty simple. They are facing a war on two fronts and Jon is a battle lord (even if not the smartest one ever) and a male, and I doubt she has any desire to try to lead the North while facing several armies.

The giant monkey wrench in all of this is Jon's parentage. The North followed Ned, who followed Robert Baratheon against the Targaryens. They'll find out he's a Targaryen at just the wrong moment - probably somewhere around the time that Daenerys is leveling King's Landing, scaring the life out of everyone that the Mad Kind's mad daughter is out to wreak vengeance on Westeros, thus proving what a danger Targaryens are by nature. Whether he is a child of rape or love, the North will believe it was rape (mad Targaryen prince defiles good Stark girl!) and turn against him, making it awfully difficult for him to lead them against the White Walkers, who are of course the real enemy. As a contender against Dany for the Iron Throne, she might not be too likely to want to ally with him either. A good deal of Westeros is going to look at him and say Rheagar's son - yay! Better a son than a daughter any day, and they'll back him against Dany. And it may look like there are no men left standing for Dany (don't forget - Jaime Lannister is about and unmarried) to marry but medieval societies had pretty involved rules about succession so even if all the Tyrell men in the direct line have died, there's some nephew's third cousin who is by rights Lord of Highgarden. Lady Mormont is an exception because Bear Island has some tradition of female succession. Most of the Houses do not - as evidenced by the North taking Jon over Sansa, even though he is a bastard. As this season has shown, women get power by subterfuge (Cersei, Yara), and dragons. I imagine the issue of gender will loom large in season 7. All of us 21st century folks may thrill to the idea of the War of the Queens, but in Westeros, I don't think they're going to much care for it.

AFTER all of this, and the eventual defeat of the White Walkers, there might be some marriage - Game of Thrones is based on the War of the Roses after all, and that finally ended when the triumphant Lancaster heir vanquished his enemies and married the heiress of the Yorks, thus uniting the two royal claims.

 

[dahj]

Now that Walder Frey is dead, perhaps Edmure will be released and can retake Riverrun at some point.

There's still like 900 Freys around, but yeah, they might start killing each other to take Walder's place and forget about Edmure

 

[Brolan]

Don't forget Jon is still part of the Stark family. He's Sansa's first cousin instead of half-brother as they believe. This also opens the possibility of a Jon/Sansa hookup regardless of how gross it may seem.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

AFTER all of this, and the eventual defeat of the White Walkers, there might be some marriage - Game of Thrones is based on the War of the Roses after all, and that finally ended when the triumphant Lancaster heir vanquished his enemies and married the heiress of the Yorks, thus uniting the two royal claims.

Considering the initial basic story of A Song of Ice and Fire is the Lannisters versus the Starks, it's interesting to note that Sansa and Tyrion are/were married. I can't remember if the marriage was officially considered annulled because Tyrion didn't consummate the marriage, but that marriage has happened.

 

[Booji]

That was a great episode... I cheered Cersi on for the first 20-some minutes, and I'm proud...

If you accept that Mr Scott has clones on seafaring vessels, it's all good... and quite cool...

It is my hope that Sanas plays Littlefingers game... reaps whatever advantages they may be... complete control of the Vale and what-not... and then have Brienne decapitate him end of next season.

 

[Saul]

Great episode and season. What a step up in speed of events. Some people here guessed what was going to happen at the beginning of the episode, I gotta stop reading speculation, it's too close to spoilers.

BTW, that baby was very blonde. Sure it's who we think it is?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Plenty of blonde babies change hair color during childhood. I know. I was a towhead until I was seven. Now I have dark brown hair.

 

[EmoBorg]

Sansa could marry Littlefinger and do what Littlefinger did to Lysa Arryn. Play him at his own game.

The look Sansa gave at the Council meeting just tells me that she is worried about Littlefinger. You could see Littlefinger scheming away while at the back of the room when things did not go his way.

Jon is not really smart but he is brave and is a good replacement for Robb Stark as King of the North. He has integrity. He just needs Tormund and Davos advising him. Melisandre is exprienced as well but she lacks integrity.

I would if the new heirs to the Karstarks and Umbers will swear loyalty to Jon ? I don't think they were at the Northern Council meeting, being on the losing side. But they are among the larger houses in the North. Their support would be important for Jon especially their tax revenue and manpower.


As i much as i detest the Freys, i did not want them to go down so fast. Without them, the Lannisters have virtually no allies.

The Tyrells, Dorne, Yara's Ironborn are with Danys now. The Vale for now are with the Starks. The death of the Freys leadership may mean a Frey civil war and a possible return of the Tullys. Not a good thing for Cersi.

For certain the remaining Baratheons loyalists are not going to side with Cersi.

Unless Euron decides to side with Cersi, just because his niece & nephew are on the otherside, the Lannister's chances of winning looks very poor. Cersi has wildfire though and if she could find a to use it against the Dragons, like an anti air weapon, she got a chance.

On a lighter note, if the White Walkers ever hear about what Cersi pulled at the Great Sept i bet they would consider an alliance with her

By the way shout out to Lady Mormont for rallying the North behind Jon.

 

[Xerxes82]

My interpretation of her actions in season one was the wish to avoid conflict and controversy rather than selfishness. That's why she didn't want to witness against Joffrey, that's why she was willing to call her father a traitor, that's why she didn't take the Hound up on his offer to take her with him. Sansa does not like making waves.

Then you're giving her WAY more credit than I ever have. She's a spoiled, selfish brat. Always has been. She did what she did in S1, not to avoid conflict, but to make sure that she got her chance to play princess/queen.

Except the Hound. That wasn't about "not making waves", that's about Sansa being dreadfully shallow. Sandor Clegane is ugly, so Sansa is uncapable of accepting him. Sansa needed people to be pretty before she was willing to give them a chance. Thankfully she does seem to have grown beyond that, although it's difficult to say if it's character growth or just desperation that let her ally with Theon-as-Reek.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

BTW, the 10-year-old actress who plays Lyanna Mormont, Bella Ramsey, has never had a credited acting role before. That some impressive poise and delivery for a first time actress of that age. Great job by the casting department, as well.