Galaxy Class in Dominion War

[Timo]

Also, warfleets were always hundreds of ships strong, even back when the shows couldn't afford to show that many. Case in point, "Redemption": the action involves dozens of ships, but only four are actually shown, yet the dialogue has the Romulans wondering why the dozens are coming because that's way too few to wage war with.

Which is good and necessary continuity for explaining away TOS as well. We see a single starship being perfectly capable of terminating a planet. Wars in the TOS era thus must involve something that stops single starships from being that devastating. Either it's other starships (but those are virtually never available in TOS for any purpose), or then something else (and DS9 finally reveals it's those orbital fortresses aka planetary defenses), but the end result must be that only great numbers of starships can terminate planets or else war (and Earth) would no longer exist.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

The Dominion War is especially telling in this respect, as we see no new starships in that war. Nothing carries a registry number higher than those of prewar ships, and the only types not seen before are blatantly old designs with Excelsior or Miranda components. And the only newbuild we even hear of is the Sao Paulo - an actual construction project completed during the war years, or another failed prototype dragged out of the scrap yard?

Timo Saloniemi

This sort of plays into my theory that for most of the war, DS9 is a backwater and we don't really see the 'proper' war. It's only when they're on the offensive, due to the proximity to Cardassia, that we see major manoeuvres.

Right at the start the Federation is happy to give up the station and Bajor in favour of attacking the Torros III shipyards - which is certainly smart strategically. It's quite possible that Starfleet's best assets were deployed there, including the Enterprise, the Sovereign and sister ships.

Sisko's ''Operation Return' fleet was cobbled together with assets that could be spared. Starfleet didn't seem to have high confidence in the success of the mission and the Klingons weren't interested, at least until Martok and Worf persuaded Gowron off-screen that it would be good for him personally in some way.

Neither the E-E nor the class she represents has ever been established as being particularly powerful. To the contrary, the E-E was considered a worthless asset in the fight against the Borg, and relegated to serving as the locale for Picard's house arrest. And she was never seen fighting the Dominion, either, FWIW.

As for "flagship", only the E-D was ever considered that. No bloody nil, A, B, C or E.

First Contact is purely about keeping Picard out of the way, it's no judgement on the capabilities of the ship. Indeed there's every possibility that there were other Sovereign class ships at the battle. Perhaps even Admiral Hayes' destroyed flagship?

As for the Dominion, as above we only see a small part of the war. You might have expected to see the Enterprise involved in the Battle of Cardassia - perhaps the camera just misses her?

Alternatively there may still have been other theatres demanding attention - recapturing Betazed for example, or besieging the Breen.

 

[Timo]

First Contact is purely about keeping Picard out of the way, it's no judgement on the capabilities of the ship. Indeed there's every possibility that there were other Sovereign class ships at the battle. Perhaps even Admiral Hayes' destroyed flagship?

You are saying that the capabilities of the ship are irrelevant to the argument - which is the same as saying the ship is worthless.

If the ship indeed were of worth, then Picard would be fired into deep space in a deactivated shuttlepod, not in a Sovereign... And Captain Halloway would promtly take over.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[starburst]

That isn't backed up in dialogue though, Geordi himself says;

The Enterprise-E is the most advanced starship in the fleet. We should be on the front line.

Now we could put this down to engineers pride, but seeming that footage shows a number of Miranda and Oberth Class ships then you have to assume that the new Enterprise is at least comparable to the Nebula and Akira class.

Unfortunately this is pure plot convenience to have the ship disobey orders and show up at the last minute, if Starfleet were thinking tactically the orders would be "Jean-Luc, we are worried about you facing the Borg again and we are putting Riker in Command" and have another cruiser join the fleet.

Obviously they were thinking more about optics and whether one more ship would matter, so instead of insulting one of their most respected Captain's they sent him off to make sure the Romulans didn't get up to mischief.

 

[Tomalak]

You are saying that the capabilities of the ship are irrelevant to the argument - which is the same as saying the ship is worthless.

If the ship indeed were of worth, then Picard would be fired into deep space in a deactivated shuttlepod, not in a Sovereign... And Captain Halloway would promtly take over.

Timo Saloniemi

But the ship obviously is handy in a fight - her shields hold quite comfortably and she blows away the Borg sphere with a couple of torpedoes. Hayes himself delivers a courtesy call to Picard, who promtly says "Yes I know, the Borg". It might have been that response that gave Hayes (a well known "windbag" ) pause to keep Picard at arms length rather than go through with his original plan to order the Enterprise to the Typhon sector.

It's just another odd decision from Admiral Plot Contrivance, who is ubiquitous in Star Trek.

 

[Arpy]

Maybe Starfleet recalled ships after Wolf 359 and building more ships for defense

Its not the numbers of ships that irk me so much as the lack of diversity. They basically just used every model they had in the back, but it makes no sense for the era or the variety necessary. They knew it would work well enough for casual viewers and apologist fans, but I don’t need it bad enough.

The other thing that’s egregious is just how closely packed the ships were. These things have weapons ranges in what hundreds or thousands of kilometers? And when they blow up, they spew ungodly amounts of antimatter everywhere. Plus poor maneuverability, weapons fire rates, no shield bubbles, on and on... Trek went Star Wars with the space battles here. More art than internal reality.

 

[Kemaiku]

Then again, every ship seen in that episode was of an already established type and had a relatively low registry for the day. Perhaps Utopia Planitia is dedicated to repair and refit rather than construction?

From what I remember of the flashback, they were only a few months into construction with a lot of unbuilt interior and not remotely full hull plating.

 

[Arpy]

Neither the E-E nor the class she represents has ever been established as being particularly powerful. To the contrary, the E-E was considered a worthless asset in the fight against the Borg, and relegated to serving as the locale for Picard's house arrest. And she was never seen fighting the Dominion, either, FWIW.

As for "flagship", only the E-D was ever considered that. No bloody nil, A, B, C or E.

Bias? Look, I kinda loathe the Sovereign Class. It's more of a cheesy replacement for whatever class stood in place between the Galaxy and the Intrepid than of the Galaxy.

But it's the "flagship" of the fleet, whatever that means. It's the the most advanced ship in the fleet, per Geordi, and per the obvious. Hell, it was kinda ridiculous having Sisko on the Defiant when he should have been on a Sovereign in those battles. I like to think Admiral Ross was on one.

The only reason it wasn't sent in in FC is because Starfleet had a problem "with its captain," not the ship itself. The only reason we didn't see it on DS9 is because TPTB didn't want there to be confusion between series -- same reason we didn't see the Galaxy Class on DS9 (after the premier) until after the E-D was lost in GEN. Same reason we didn't see a slew of Intrepids in those battle scenes.

Even forgetting the ship classes that they never designed, in those space battles, you should have seen Sovereigns, Intrepids, Olympics, Ambassadors, and maybe some Constitution Refits and Sydneys (if you're going to go back that far -- Miranda) as well. Some Centaurs and Currys and hideous others too. Romulan Scout vessels too, while you're at it. All these models were built and sitting around. ...maybe it's that they were only using CG ships by that point? Right-o; Sovereigns and Intrepids at least then.

 

[Unionized Elf]

But it's the "flagship" of the fleet, whatever that means. It's the the most advanced ship in the fleet, per Geordi, and per the obvious.

But then a year later, the Prometheus was "the most advanced ship in the fleet." In fact, Starfleet keeps changing which ship is the most advanced throughout the 2370s as in the period of 2370-2375 the Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign and Prometheus classes are all identified as "Starfleet's most advanced."

The only reason we didn't see it on DS9 is because TPTB didn't want there to be confusion between series

Actually, Paramount believed if they showed a Sovereign class ship on the show no one would go to the theatres to see TNG movies, and they held firm with that reason when Ira Behr tried arguing tooth and nail with them when he wanted to feature a Sovereign in the WYLB fleet. Ironically, no one had seen Insurrection in theatres six months earlier, and no one would see Nemesis in theatres three years later.

 

[ozzfloyd]

"Most advanced ship in the fleet" in no way, shape, or form means it's the flagship.

 

[Tomalak]

"Most advanced ship in the fleet" in no way, shape, or form means it's the flagship.

Yeah, it just means "newest".

 

[Flowrellik]

Galaxy class starships are pretty solid in their right, so long as the right captain is on the job manning the ship. The Dominion war did point out that the federation as a whole were not ready for the Dominion so war refits had to be made, same with stronger alliances to combat their polaron tech.

 

[Arpy]

But then a year later, the Prometheus was "the most advanced ship in the fleet." In fact, Starfleet keeps changing which ship is the most advanced throughout the 2370s as in the period of 2370-2375 the Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign and Prometheus classes are all identified as "Starfleet's most advanced."

Maybe, but not really. The Galaxy, as the flagship, was the most advanced ship of the fleet, until then. The Defiant had a lot of new weapons but not much else, and its tech was later transferred to bigger ships. The Intrepid was because of its bio-neural gel-packs, but, again, one imagines that tech didn't stay just there. The Sovereign was because it took over the all-around role of flagship, taking the flagship's crew and name; they didn't go to another Galaxy Class, like the Kirk & Co. went to an identical E-A. You have to try to not be seeing that. You could, for the sake of a story, say the Enterprise lost its flagship status for a time (was there a flagship between the E-C and the E-D, decades later?), but that's likely not what's happening.

The Prometheus was a "most advanced ship" because of its multi-vector assault mode (and new weapons?), but, it couldn't take on the mantle of flagship. And given that it's MVAM hasn't shown up since (because it was cheese for a comedy episode), I'm guessing that it was (like the Defiant and Intrepid) a testbed ship whose tech was then spread across the rest of the fleet. Phasers and torpedoes, if not MVAM....maybe saucers are now hella fierce, after they separate?


EDIT:

Actually, Paramount believed if they showed a Sovereign class ship on the show no one would go to the theatres to see TNG movies, and they held firm with that reason when Ira Behr tried arguing tooth and nail with them when he wanted to feature a Sovereign in the WYLB fleet. Ironically, no one had seen Insurrection in theatres six months earlier, and no one would see Nemesis in theatres three years later.

Good to know. (And what jerks ) But there you have it; it had nothing to do with anything in-universe. And one imagines that if they do a flashback scene to the invasion of Cardassia that they'll include ships that should have obviously been there, like the Sovereign, as they did when they included an Ambassador Class at Wolf 359 in the opening scene of DS9, despite there not (I don't remember) being one in the Wolf 359 wreckage scene in BoBW.

 

[Unionized Elf]

The Prometheus was a "most advanced ship" because of its multi-vector assault mode (and new weapons?),

It was also faster than any other Starfleet ship, as per dialogue in the episode.

 

[Arpy]

It was also faster than any other Starfleet ship, as per dialogue in the episode.

Right, Warp 9.975. Again, kinda silly. Why does it need to be the fastest ever? It's not going to get back from the DQ all that much faster, and how fast are we going to go with the ship of the next series, Warp 9.975975? It's not going to outrun the Kazon or Borg any faster than the story calls for either.

 

[Arpy]

If we're going all out, the Federation fleet should have been comprised of Sovereigns, Galaxys, Nebulas, Ambassadors, Excelsiors, Centaurs, Olympics, Intrepids, Defiants, Akiras, Sabers (refitted), Norways (or not; they're hideous), Cheyennes, New Orleans's....variants of all those ships from different eras (i.e. an Ambassador era version of the Nebula Class)....variants of ships of other configurations (like that of the Kelvin or the Curry)....and some troop/colony transports, scouts, corvettes, clippers(?), cargo carriers, repair/factory ships....etc.

The Klingon and Romulan fleets should have also included dozens different classes. (Yeah, that's a lot, but only the D'deridex for the Romulans?) By the end of the war, maybe some Talarian, Ferengi, or other species too -- Tamarian? Jarada?

And that's just the good guys.

 

[Flowrellik]

Arpy's got a point, and don't say that for Klingons having a whole bunch of scales for a Bird of prey model used since TMP for different types (B'rel, Kvort, Zgavama, K'Tara, etc) can just be a worthwhile thing.
Tbh I was surprised there were no refits for older ships for the Romulans. It would have been nice to see a TNG era V-8 BOP or those drone ships from ENT.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They probably built a ton of Galaxy class ships based on the success of the Enterprise. But yes, they are meant to be deep space exploration vessels, they have a lot of bells and whistles that aren't necessary for combat.

 

[Unionized Elf]

They probably built a ton of Galaxy class ships based on the success of the Enterprise.

"Success of the Enterprise"? The damn ship was on the brink of catastrophic systems failure a few times a year, every year for its eight years of service, and was taken down by a run-down retired Klingon BoP which scored a lucky shot. Sure, they had inside access so to speak, but a ship which hadn't been in active service for over twenty years should not have posed a threat to Starfleet's flagship. Even the Duras sisters thought so.

 

[Mage]

and was taken down by a run-down retired Klingon BoP which scored a lucky shot. Sure, they had inside access so to speak, but a ship which hadn't been in active service for over twenty years should not have posed a threat to Starfleet's flagship. Even the Duras sisters thought so.

You just said it yourself, inside info. In a fair fight, they wouldn't stand a chance. But when do the Duras sisters fight fair?