"Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yes I realize that some people love Kes. However I'm not going to take back my honest response to her demise(s). Just as I dislike Kes I accept that others despise Neelix etc.. such is fandom.

Look at it this way--if you love a character you are likely to look for their redemption or a way out of something unsavoury that happens to them. See alt.Trip.Tucker. Heck go back in time nearly 15 years and see Captain Kirk. The anger and alternatives offered to explain his death.. well many have forgotten it now but it was a big deal for some. And yet I know other fans who were like "Kirk was a jerk! He's dead, YAY!"

 

[Lynx]

Yes I realize that some people love Kes. However I'm not going to take back my honest response to her demise(s). Just as I dislike Kes I accept that others despise Neelix etc.. such is fandom.

Look at it this way--if you love a character you are likely to look for their redemption or a way out of something unsavoury that happens to them. See alt.Trip.Tucker. Heck go back in time nearly 15 years and see Captain Kirk. The anger and alternatives offered to explain his death.. well many have forgotten it now but it was a big deal for some. And yet I know other fans who were like "Kirk was a jerk! He's dead, YAY!"

I agree with your point about us who looks for redemption for certain characters. I remember the anger about what happened to Captain Kirk and I strongly support those who were p***ed off with what happened to the character in "Generations". It was rude and unnecessary to bring back the character just to kill him off like they did. If they wanted Kirk in a TNG movie, they could have used some time-travel story instead, maybe some combination between "Generations" and "First Contact".

However, the fans of Kirk can actually dismiss "Generations" if they want because Kirk remains the icon of Star trek (together with Spock). There are three seasons with episodes and six movies available with Kirk as the main character. There are a lot of TOS books available and there will probably be more books written about Captain Kirk with adventures which takes place in the TOS timeline.

As I see it, Kes was treated ten times worse than Kirk. She was dumped after three seasons and then brought back only to be destroyed. Kirk did after all leave as a hero while Kes left as a maniac and pathetic wreck. The fact that there was a letter campaign going to have Kes re-instated as a main character again and that "Fury" was the response from those in charge is further fuel to the flame. Kirk will still be remember as a hero while Kes will be remember as the one who became a whacko and there will be no books written with Kes as the main character.

Many of us can't accept that, therefore we are looking for solutions. Not to mention that the pathetic wreck we saw in "Fury" was the total opposite to what Kes was and ever stood for in Voyager.

Or to make it short: We simply don't accept the events in "Fury".

 

[McCoy]

Lynx could you please spoiler-code the String Theory explanation? I love Kes and I'm curious but will probably never read the books.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Lynx I do understand what you're upset about. I was rather incensed at the treatment of a VOY hero of mine in a certain book:

Spoiler: Spoiler for the novel "Before Dishonor"

Janeway lost to the Borg? Used as the Borg Queen? I know some say "well she would have been a dead character as Admiral, nothing for her to do.." but hey I don't want her borgified just so I can have her in a novel.

Your point about a long time character versus the dumb/evil get-rid-of demise of a short term character is good too.

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.

 

[Ezri II]

I like Kes. Sad that she had to be evil in that show. Oh, I bet Kes has some cookies and milk to share with us.

Anyway, this was not the first time Kes was with Kes in a show. Kes I think had to deal with herself more often then any character in Star Trek. And when she did. It was so lame. Now how many times has Kes given Kes a medical checkup? Weird!

 

[Lynx]

Lynx I do understand what you're upset about. I was rather incensed at the treatment of a VOY hero of mine in a certain book:

Spoiler: Spoiler for the novel "Before Dishonor"

Janeway lost to the Borg? Used as the Borg Queen? I know some say "well she would have been a dead character as Admiral, nothing for her to do.." but hey I don't want her borgified just so I can have her in a novel.

Your point about a long time character versus the dumb/evil get-rid-of demise of a short term character is good too.

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.

I can see your point when it comes to the adolescence thing but the events in "Fury" still doesn't make any sense.

OK, a situation could occur where Kes could be p***ed off with Janeway and the others. But she would never try to kill them or harm them in any way. Such behavior would clearly be caused by a mental disorder and I don't like to see Kes portrayed this way. No other main character of Star trek have ever been thurned into mentally sick people and remained that way.

Besides that, Kes wasn't the typical neglected teenage kid. First of all, she had nothing to blame her crewmates for. They, especially Janeway, treated her in the best possible way. Second, Kes was a smart, level-headed strong-willed person who did show several times that she could overcome evil temptation and attempts from evil forces to control her. She was probably the last one on that ship who would have gone crazy in any way.

Add to that, that the whole "Fury" thing was obviously a response from those in charge to a letter campaign which was going to have Kes re-instated as a main character. People were sending in requests for having Kes back and those in charge responded with an episode where the character was humiliated and destroyed. They actually planned to kill off the character at the end but Jennifer Lien made them change that.

To be honest, they did more and less spit in the faces of the Kes fans so I do think that you understand why so many of the Kes fans simply can't accept "Fury".

As for the book "Before Dishonor", I haven't read it but I know that many fans are dissapointed with that book for certain reasons.

Spoiler: Before Dishonor

Didn't they kill off Janeway at the end of the book? How can they do such a thing? Janeway is a main character. They simply can't kill her off!

 

[Lynx]

Lynx could you please spoiler-code the String Theory explanation? I love Kes and I'm curious but will probably never read the books.

The text in the spoiler is quoted from the Memory Alpha Star Trek wikipedia site:

Spoiler: String Theory books

In the Strin Theory trilogy, Kes was called to Ocampa's distant past to help the Doctor and Q oversee the birth of an Ocampa/Nacene hybrid; the Ocampan mother lacked the life energy to carry the child to term, so Kes 'merged' with the woman to act as a kind of surrogate. This also revealed that the Kes who attacked Voyager in "Fury"was not actually the future Kes, but was instead the personification of the anger and rage in Kes's soul, created when she was forced to separate herself from the Ocampan she had merged with while fighting a rogue Nacene. As a result of the improper separation, Kes's "dark side" merged with the body of the Ocampan, although the spirit of the Ocampan herself passed on peacefully. Kes subsequently returned to Ocampa, where she and the hybrid were able to bring rain to the planet once more.

A somewhat strange but plausible and acceptable explanation for the events in "Fury". However, I would really like to see a book where Kes is brought back as a main Voyager character again.

 

[exodus]

Lynx I do understand what you're upset about. I was rather incensed at the treatment of a VOY hero of mine in a certain book:

Spoiler: Spoiler for the novel "Before Dishonor"

Janeway lost to the Borg? Used as the Borg Queen? I know some say "well she would have been a dead character as Admiral, nothing for her to do.." but hey I don't want her borgified just so I can have her in a novel.

Your point about a long time character versus the dumb/evil get-rid-of demise of a short term character is good too.

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.

I think you explaination makes perfect sense in that fact that it's also real world believeable. We also have to take into consideration what was stated in "Before & After" and how we Ocamians get older the "morelogium" sets in, a period when their memory starts to break down.

Plus I don't in anyway believe TPTB ruined Kes and certainly not on purpose. Voyager was the flagship show of UPN, a brand new network. The show was already on a decline in viewership. Why would they ever wish to loose more by purposly alienating more fans by intenionally ruining a character? That doesn't make any sense logically or business wise. Loosing more viewers also hurts the show and Paramounts wallet.

 

[kimc]

I don't believe characters were intentionally ruined but writers/producers don't always have an accurate reading of what fans will find entertaining. Not only were Kes fans not happy with "Fury" but as mentioned above the book "Before Dishonor" made many unhappy and don't even get me started in this thread about my anger regarding "Endgame".

Yes, I get peeved too. I refuse to be egged on about it though.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I doubt TPTB were purposely trying to enrage fans by ruining Kes.
We're lucky they even acknowledged the Kes fans at all. They're trying to run a tv program and can't cater to a vocal minority of the viewing audience. They probably thought it was a reasonable compromise that gave some closure to the character at the end of the episode. Obviously, they were not going to bring her back as a main character since Seven joined. And I don't think Jennifer Lien would've agreed to the episode if she thought its sole purpose was to intentionally ruin the character and piss off fans.

 

[exodus]

In all honesty, we can agree or disagree about Kes in "Fury" and about whos intentions were what. The main point is however, no matter what they did to the character, she was never going to return as a main character anyway. Alive or dead, good, bad or indifferent, Kes was gone for good.

 

[Lynx]

I doubt TPTB were purposely trying to enrage fans by ruining Kes.
We're lucky they even acknowledged the Kes fans at all. They're trying to run a tv program and can't cater to a vocal minority of the viewing audience. They probably thought it was a reasonable compromise that gave some closure to the character at the end of the episode. Obviously, they were not going to bring her back as a main character since Seven joined. And I don't think Jennifer Lien would've agreed to the episode if she thought its sole purpose was to intentionally ruin the character and piss off fans.

I can understand that many fans find it hard to think that they did p*** off the fans of the character on pupose.

But did they really believe that the fans of the character would like that episode?

And why suddenly bring back a character who they have tried everything to make the fans forget?

As I see it, they had two options: They could have brought her back for some episodes at the end of the series, restored her to normal and let her arrive to Earth with the rest of the crew or they could simply have left it as it was, not bringing her back at all (which would have been a much better solution).

Instead they went for the worst possible solution and they didn't even care to correct that when the negative response from the fans started to show up after the episode was aired.

And that really makes me wonder.

I guess that the refusal from many Kes fans to accept the whole thing can be seen as somewhat stubborn, provocative and even narrow-minded by those who don't like the character, don't care about her or only have a casual interest in the character as one of the Voyager characters.

I also guess that my rantings about how the character was mistreated can annoy certain posters as well. In that case I must apologize because it's not my intention to create conflicts over the character. However, I won't deny the fact that I still find the whole issue highly annoying and even insulting.

But when it comes to fandom and wishes to correct things, I recently read an article about the fans of a now defunct NHL ice-hockey team called Hartford Whalers. A hardcore group of fans in Hartford still consider the Hartford Whalers (and not the minor league replacement team the town has nowdays) as their favorite team, they wear the team jerseys on special occasions, celebrates certain events in the team history and are actually working for a possibility to restart the Hartford Whalers and have them back in the NHL in the coming future.

I guess that some of us Kes fans are pretty like them in some way.

 

[Ezri II]

I don't believe characters were intentionally ruined but writers/producers don't always have an accurate reading of what fans will find entertaining. Not only were Kes fans not happy with "Fury" but as mentioned above the book "Before Dishonor" made many unhappy and don't even get me started in this thread about my anger regarding "Endgame".

Yes, I get peeved too. I refuse to be egged on about it though.

Well I understand the fans would be upset, yes the Kes fans.

Still, was it always best to always have Kes to look weak all the time. The reson people do not like Kes was the idea she was to passive and let others make the rules.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.

I can see your point when it comes to the adolescence thing but the events in "Fury" still doesn't make any sense.

OK, a situation could occur where Kes could be p***ed off with Janeway and the others. But she would never try to kill them or harm them in any way. Such behavior would clearly be caused by a mental disorder and I don't like to see Kes portrayed this way. No other main character of Star trek have ever been thurned into mentally sick people and remained that way.

Some would say Dukat was turned into a mentally sick person and remained that way, just as an aside here. But I'm not saying she was mentally ill.

How do you know she would never try to kill them while in some adolescent rage? How many teenagers have yelled "I HATE YOU YOU'RE RUINING MY LIFE!!!" at their parents? That's basically what Kes does but magnified times a million. Now imagine such a level of anger and blame directed at Ocampans who were the matured version of whatever Kes is about to become -- beings who cannot be killed, maimed, destroyed by that anger, beings for whom this is the equivalent of cursing your parents out and slamming your bedroom door. Picture her behavior directed at Q for instance, it's a great big tantrum.

Besides that, Kes wasn't the typical neglected teenage kid. First of all, she had nothing to blame her crewmates for. They, especially Janeway, treated her in the best possible way. Second, Kes was a smart, level-headed strong-willed person who did show several times that she could overcome evil temptation and attempts from evil forces to control her. She was probably the last one on that ship who would have gone crazy in any way.

Well plenty of lovely smart 12 year olds who enjoy going shopping with their mothers turn into horrible emos who blame their parents for their existential angst and have hair trigger tempers. It happens and there's even a physiological explanation for it in humans to do with the development of the adolescent brain. Also nice as Janeway and the crew were to Kes they were unable to give her the guidance an evolved Ocampan would have given her because they simply had no idea.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

^^ Do you think she would have evolved as far if she'd remained with the other Caretaker's Ocampans?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

She wouldn't have evolved so far if she had remained under the Caretaker's care because their lives were so controlled and managed, both by the Caretaker's provisions and by their own cultures passivity. However now that they are left to their own devices who knows? Perhaps having lots of choices has a triggering effect on the Ocampan brain. You know how you can exercise your brain through doing math etc.. to develop you thinking capacity. Well the Ocampans under the Caretakers care had pretty much no exercise in thinking, making choices, learning about consequences. I expect more and more of them will developing dramatically now that their environment is no longer protected.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

^^ I was referring to the more psychically-advanced Ocampa, like Tanis, that lived with the Suspiria Caretaker in the episode "Cold Fire." These Ocampa had a lifespan of about 20 years as opposed to the 9 experienced on the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" and could apparently control the growth of plants.

 

[Ezri II]

^^ I was referring to the more psychically-advanced Ocampa, like Tanis, that lived with the Suspiria Caretaker in the episode "Cold Fire." These Ocampa had a lifespan of about 20 years as opposed to the 9 experienced on the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" and could apparently control the growth of plants.

Is this the reason the caretaker did destroy the Ocampa in the first place because they had such great powers? We have to ask why the caretaker had such great quilt with the Ocampa that he spent the rest of his life to protect what was left.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

^^ I was referring to the more psychically-advanced Ocampa, like Tanis, that lived with the Suspiria Caretaker in the episode "Cold Fire." These Ocampa had a lifespan of about 20 years as opposed to the 9 experienced on the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" and could apparently control the growth of plants.

Is this the reason the caretaker did destroy the Ocampa in the first place because they had such great powers? We have to ask why the caretaker had such great quilt with the Ocampa that he spent the rest of his life to protect what was left.

The destruction of the planet, not the species, was the result of an accident -- somehow they (the Caretaker's species called the Nacene) didn't realize their exploration of the planet would result in such drastic events. They felt bad and decided to "take care" of the Ocampa to rectify their mistake, which eventually lead to an Ocampan dependency on the Caretaker. From MA

Ocampa has all the characteristics of a class-M planet, with the sole exception of the absence of nucleogenic particles – making the planet's atmosphere incapable of producing rain, and turning its surface into a desert. To the Ocampa, this period of time was known as "the Warming".
It was later discovered that this was an accidental side effect of the exploration of the planet by a group of Nacene. The Nacene constructed a vast underground city, two miles below the surface, for the Ocampa to live in following the disaster in the 14th century (Earth calendar), and left behind two members of the exploration team – Suspiria, and the one the Ocampa came to know as the Caretaker – to care for the race.
Although short of water, the planet is rich in cormaline deposits. The Kazon-Ogla sect maintain an encampment on the planet's southern continent to mine its resources. Jabin was the leader of this encampment in the early 2370s.
In 2371, the USS Voyager was transported to the area near Ocampa. It was at this time that the Caretaker passed away, having given the Ocampa enough surplus energy to keep the city running until 2376. (VOY: "Caretaker")

 

[Lynx]

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.

I can see your point when it comes to the adolescence thing but the events in "Fury" still doesn't make any sense.

OK, a situation could occur where Kes could be p***ed off with Janeway and the others. But she would never try to kill them or harm them in any way. Such behavior would clearly be caused by a mental disorder and I don't like to see Kes portrayed this way. No other main character of Star trek have ever been thurned into mentally sick people and remained that way.

Some would say Dukat was turned into a mentally sick person and remained that way, just as an aside here. But I'm not saying she was mentally ill.

How do you know she would never try to kill them while in some adolescent rage? How many teenagers have yelled "I HATE YOU YOU'RE RUINING MY LIFE!!!" at their parents? That's basically what Kes does but magnified times a million. Now imagine such a level of anger and blame directed at Ocampans who were the matured version of whatever Kes is about to become -- beings who cannot be killed, maimed, destroyed by that anger, beings for whom this is the equivalent of cursing your parents out and slamming your bedroom door. Picture her behavior directed at Q for instance, it's a great big tantrum.

Besides that, Kes wasn't the typical neglected teenage kid. First of all, she had nothing to blame her crewmates for. They, especially Janeway, treated her in the best possible way. Second, Kes was a smart, level-headed strong-willed person who did show several times that she could overcome evil temptation and attempts from evil forces to control her. She was probably the last one on that ship who would have gone crazy in any way.

Well plenty of lovely smart 12 year olds who enjoy going shopping with their mothers turn into horrible emos who blame their parents for their existential angst and have hair trigger tempers. It happens and there's even a physiological explanation for it in humans to do with the development of the adolescent brain. Also nice as Janeway and the crew were to Kes they were unable to give her the guidance an evolved Ocampan would have given her because they simply had no idea.

Yes, teenagers can act that way but how many of them become whackos and are trying to kill their parents? One in 20 millions, not even that. Besides that, Kes was no teenage kid, she was an equivalent to a 25-30 years old human.

And as I've stated before, Kes was a level-headed, strong-willed person who had showed many times that she could withstand evil temptations and attempts to take over her mind. She was the last one on that ship to go crazy.

Something like that could rather happen to Torres with her lousy temper and constant frustration, to Seven with her background as an abducted Borgified human, to Kim being constantly rejected and overlooked or to Vorik with his surpressed Vulcan urges. Those would be more possible canditates for insanity than Kes.