Full Circle

[BillJ]

You don't want to read "Games of Command" and you are not closed minded, but because we don't want Voyager without Janeway we are. You cannot have it both ways.

Brit

The link is to Amazon, with a synopsis, a four and a half star rating, cover art by Stephen Youll, and you can search the pages.

It's one thing not to be interested in a specific genre, in this case romance. It's quite a different thing to be interested in a sci-fi series and decide not to read based on the absence of one character.

Why does it bother you so much? Why do you want to judge people's reading tastes and preferences as reasonable and unreasonable?

Actually, was moving from downstairs to upstairs computer and wanted to finish a thought on Games of Command. Based on the reviews I see on the book... I may well pick it up at some point. Given I have time and can cut through some of my current 'to read' pile which includes the Honor Harrington books.

I'm not judging... merely trying to understand the mindset of someone so committed to one character. From where I'm sitting it seemingly borders on obsession.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You can honestly say "I'm not judging" with a straight face? When your posts are all about why it is an inferior reading choice to not read a book based on the absence of a character?

I don't think you are trying to understand because there is nothing TO understand. It's like trying to understand why some people won't eat a hotdog without ketchup on it. There is really no mystery at all to people having preferences and tastes, you are the one that uses words like "obsession" and "fear".

 

[BillJ]

You can honestly say "I'm not judging" with a straight face? When your posts are all about why it is an inferior reading choice to not read a book based on the absence of a character?

I'm a pretty old school Trekker, started in 1975, and Jim Kirk was a boyhood hero. I lived though the death of Spock, the destruction of the Enterprise and the death of Jim Kirk and never once considered abandoning Star Trek. So I'm actually curious why a group of people would abandon something they claim to love based on one character moving on. I guess my question is: do you guys love Voyager or do you just love Janeway?

I don't think you are trying to understand because there is nothing TO understand. It's like trying to understand why some people won't eat a hotdog without ketchup on it. There is really no mystery at all to people having preferences and tastes, you are the one that uses words like "obsession" and "fear".

They're just observations based on what I've seen on this and the TrekLit boards. If they're not valid observations, why even dignify the comments with a response?

 

[AuntKate]

I outdate you on the fanship, dude. I was there the first day in 1966 and saw what I could of the series on its first showing (I was busy with school and my dad, who didn't like scifi, controlled the TV). I'm still a fan. I got a Star Trek book for Christmas, and awesome one: Star Trek the Original Series 365. I own every one of the TNG numbered novels and most of the crossovers. I have a lot of the dvds and all of the movies. I slowed down in my reading when I got hooked on internet fanfiction, and now I am so far behind in reading the relaunches that I don't know if I can catch up. I'm still a fan. I love nuTrek, go to conventions, and use Trek in my teaching. So, don't think for a minute that I'm not a fan. That doesn't mean that I can't have preferences, though.

 

[BillJ]

I outdate you on the fanship, dude. I was there the first day in 1966 and saw what I could of the series on its first showing (I was busy with school and my dad, who didn't like scifi, controlled the TV). I'm still a fan. I got a Star Trek book for Christmas, and awesome one: Star Trek the Original Series 365. I own every one of the TNG numbered novels and most of the crossovers. I have a lot of the dvds and all of the movies. I slowed down in my reading when I got hooked on internet fanfiction, and now I am so far behind in reading the relaunches that I don't know if I can catch up. I'm still a fan. I love nuTrek, go to conventions, and use Trek in my teaching. So, don't think for a minute that I'm not a fan. That doesn't mean that I can't have preferences, though.

I also got Star Trek 365.

Janeway just seems to have this cult following and seems bigger than Voyager to those who like the character.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well you both outdate me but BillJ only outdates me by one year. Nice to meet an Original trekker Aunt Kate who was there for the whole journey right up to NuTrek! I love the whole damn thing. My favorite Christmas was when I got the James Blish boxed set and the Alan Dean Foster box set in the same year. I retreated to my room (there was a 6 foot poster of Captain Kirk on the transporter pad on the door) and spent the rest of the Christmas break reading and rereading.. back then there was so little to read.

I'm tired of explaining to BillJ what should be a simple matter of preferences. BillJ you seem to want it to be a sign of obsession or something equally scary and unbalanced. There's really nothing I could say to you that won't make you come back with a judgment call about my preferences. I do understand it though as I used to judge Lynx the same way but I have had an epiphany (oooo scary religious word that might denote obsession..) about these matters within fandom. Lynx if you are reading this I am sorry if I ever came down on your case about Kes.

Everything is cool. IDIC and all that. If someone tells me they are never reading another TNG book until Data returns I will reply with "gotcha" and that will be the end of it. I won't ask them if they love Data more than TNG or any other leading question. People have ALL kinds of preferences in Trek. I have spent countless hours defending my love of Enterprise from people who think that I am wrong in loving it. Why the need to prove to people that their preferences are inferior, obsessive, unbalanced?

It just seems so simple to me.

 

[froot]

Janeway just seems to have this cult following and seems bigger than Voyager to those who like the character.

Cult following? Naw, just a cult.

Do I like VOY first because of Janeway? In my case, prolly. A character like that was a big impact on a little girl who loved sci-fi.

But I liked and still like Trek as a whole. I'm a younger fan, but I loved Trek well before VOY existed. It's just delicious icing on my fan cake. And I'm just as uppity about Spock. I would have lost my mind if I had been around when TWOK came out.

EDIT: Seriously, I have framed images of Spock, Kirk, and McCoy in my living room. Sure, I have a few friends' pics on the mantle, but those guys have a spot on the wall. (Autographed image of Janeway sits upstairs near my computer staring at the back of my head.)

 

[Brit]

I was there the first day in 1966 and saw what I could of the series on its first showing

I became a fan too in 1966 with the very first showing of the original series. I think that there may be only four or so people older than I am in the J/C fandom, I will be 64 in May.

I'd have been equally unhappy if Spock would have stayed dead, and I am glad that Trek Lit brought Data back. I like some of the characters in trek better than others but for me Trek was always more about the people than the ships. Picard is Trek, his ship Enterprise isn't. Sisko is Trek, not the DS9 space station, and Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway.

Like Aunt Kate, I have lots of Trek books starting with the James Blish episode adaptions, I think the last book is the hardback copy of "Death in Winter," or one of the "New Frontier" books. (I got behind reading for some time when my Mom was very ill before she passed away.) I own DVD's of all the movies (including Abram's Trek), all the Voyager seasons, four seasons of NG, three of DS9. I had a large collection of Trek video tapes too, and I have most if not all of the animated series that I taped myself from TV for my daughter when she was little. My daughter was a big fan of Peter David's Imzadi books and I was buying his New Frontier Books in hard backs.

I resent being told that I am not a fan because I do not accept the death of Kathryn Janeway. I didn't like the rumor that the original series was going to be canceled so I wrote a letter. I don't like Janeway's absence from Trek Literature so I write letters again, and I belong to Facebook groups and twitter groups. You only lose when you quit and I am not quitting anything.

Brit

 

[JB2005]

I resent being told I am not a fan because I accept Janeway's death

 

[DigificWriter]

Brit, none of us who have 'dissenting opinions' regarding Janeway (dissenting compared to yours) and who have responded here have, as far as I am aware, once said or even implied that you are not a fan because of the opinion(s) you hold. We've made the observation that your behavior and attitude comes across as borderline obsessive, but we've never once questioned your level of devotion to the series.

Conversely, you and others have repeatedly stated and insinuated that because we don't share your opinion on Janeway's involvement - or lack thereof - as a central part of the post-finale Voyager fiction, her characterization in Before Dishonor, and her death in same, we're somehow lesser fans than you.

Because of all of the above behavior, I'm about ready to start classifying said behavior as having crossed a line from 'obsessed' to 'extreme'. If doing so - and not sharing your views - somehow makes me a lesser fan than you, so be it, because I wouldn't want to be counted as fellows with you anyway because of your behavior, intransigence, and attitude(s).

 

[AuntKate]

Brit, none of us who have 'dissenting opinions' regarding Janeway (dissenting compared to yours) and who have responded here have, as far as I am aware, once said or even implied that you are not a fan because of the opinion(s) you hold. We've made the observation that your behavior and attitude comes across as borderline obsessive, but we've never once questioned your level of devotion to the series.

Conversely, you and others have repeatedly stated and insinuated that because we don't share your opinion on Janeway's involvement - or lack thereof - as a central part of the post-finale Voyager fiction, her characterization in Before Dishonor, and her death in same, we're somehow lesser fans than you.

Because of all of the above behavior, I'm about ready to start classifying said behavior as having crossed a line from 'obsessed' to 'extreme'. If doing so - and not sharing your views - somehow makes me a lesser fan than you, so be it, because I wouldn't want to be counted as fellows with you anyway because of your behavior, intransigence, and attitude(s).

I think your attitude comes more from insinuation than statement, at least on my part. I don't care if you like "Before Dishonor." I don't care if you enjoy the non-Janeway relaunch. You asked for someone to explain how Janeway was out of character, and I did that. I think I kept my tone very calm and objective in the process.

Being a fan doesn't mean that you must like it all. I like the franchise, but I have my preferences. Not reading the current Voyager relaunch is no worse than a fan who won't watch Enterprise or won't read a spinoff novel, like Vanguard, for example. Janeway (and Voyager) fans are often criticized for their fervor over their dedication to the character and the series. I think that is a bit odd, to tell the truth. Isn't that kind of fervor a normal part of being a fan?

Have you crossed the line from obsessed to extreme about the so called militant Janeway fans? Hmmm?

 

[Brit]

I resent being told I am not a fan because I accept Janeway's death

I could think that you were not a fan, due to the way you treat Janeway's other fans. Don't attach derogatory labels to us just because we don't agree with you.

True fans embrace the differences and do not exclude others just because they would like to read books about Janeway. I have not said Kirsten Beyer's books are poorly written, I have said that they are not what I want to read. I have not said you have to join our protest, I have said I will continue it until Janeway is brought back.

You are the one that continues to demand that we read the book to be fans. We have an economic boycott going, and you don't support that boycott by purchasing anything that promotes what you are protesting from the entity you are boycotting. Boycotts don't work that way. My daughter and I did purchase "Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many" because it is set in a universe that has a living Janeway.

I am also tired of being accused of not knowing what I am talking about when I talk about the business side of the publishing industry. All anyone has to do is a short Google search to see that their financial problems are a fact. I have personally had over thirty years accounting experience, the latest in the mortgage division of a very large, successful international financial institution. I know how businesses look at bottom lines and I know how and why decisions are made. I've been through three Chapter 11's, I know what an unhealthy company looks like from the inside, and I know in general what kinds of steps have to be taken to get them healthy again.

From the beginning here on the Trek BBS, there have been a lot of assumptions made about me, and you haven't got one of them right yet. Not even this last one.

Brit

 

[BillJ]

Boycotts don't work that way. My daughter and I did purchase "Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many" because it is set in a universe that has a living Janeway.

Sending Pocket quite a message there.

I am also tired of being accused of not knowing what I am talking about when I talk about the business side of the publishing industry. All anyone has to do is a short Google search to see that their financial problems are a fact.

Brit

I think this is a logical fallacy. If Janeway was selling Voyager books I seriously doubt they would've removed the character to begin with.

I respect the fact that you work in a Mortgage Division for a long time, I was a Bank Operations manager for over a decade. I doubt the experiences either of us have had make us qualified to make financial decisions in the publishing industry.

 

[Brit]

Brit, none of us who have 'dissenting opinions' regarding Janeway (dissenting compared to yours) and who have responded here have, as far as I am aware, once said or even implied that you are not a fan because of the opinion(s) you hold. We've made the observation that your behavior and attitude comes across as borderline obsessive, but we've never once questioned your level of devotion to the series.

Conversely, you and others have repeatedly stated and insinuated that because we don't share your opinion on Janeway's involvement - or lack thereof - as a central part of the post-finale Voyager fiction, her characterization in Before Dishonor, and her death in same, we're somehow lesser fans than you.

Because of all of the above behavior, I'm about ready to start classifying said behavior as having crossed a line from 'obsessed' to 'extreme'. If doing so - and not sharing your views - somehow makes me a lesser fan than you, so be it, because I wouldn't want to be counted as fellows with you anyway because of your behavior, intransigence, and attitude(s).

And I could turn this around and say exactly the same to you. You come across as obsessed to extreme to me in your attitude too. This is a subjective assessment and has it basis in seeing what you want to see. (And I am fully aware that that can work both ways too.)

Aunt Kate has known me for a lot of years, and I don't think she has the same assessment as you do. I sure don't have the same assessment as you do about her. I don't know about other fandoms, but I do know that those internet friendships born out of the J/C fandom have tended to become personal friendships. We know each other because we actually visit each other, we meet at conventions, we talk face to face on Skype.

Just because you got over her expulsion doesn't mean that everyone should do the same thing. And finally I could tell you the same thing I have so often heard, "You do know this is fiction we are talking about." I am well aware it is fiction, but I am also aware of just how long fiction can last.

Brit

 

[BillJ]

Amazon rank for books sold, I'm not sure if these totals include Kindle sales. EDIT: Kindle rank is in ().

Unworthy - # 95,916 (21,798)
Before Dishonor - #101,242 (54,364)
Full Circle - #305,413 (35,113)
The Needs of the Many - #365,584 (64,638)

I'll add the post-Endgame Golden books even though Trek sales in general were in a completely different place close to a decade ago.

Homecoming - #77,603 (39,594)
The Farther Shore - #186,711 (16,097)
Old Wounds - #564,406 (50,844)
Enemy of My Enemy - #632,862 (103,197)

 

[JB2005]

I resent being told I am not a fan because I accept Janeway's death

I could think that you were not a fan, due to the way you treat Janeway's other fans. Don't attach derogatory labels to us just because we don't agree with you.

True fans embrace the differences and do not exclude others just because they would like to read books about Janeway. I have not said Kirsten Beyer's books are poorly written, I have said that they are not what I want to read. I have not said you have to join our protest, I have said I will continue it until Janeway is brought back.

You are the one that continues to demand that we read the book to be fans. We have an economic boycott going, and you don't support that boycott by purchasing anything that promotes what you are protesting from the entity you are boycotting. Boycotts don't work that way. My daughter and I did purchase "Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many" because it is set in a universe that has a living Janeway.

I am also tired of being accused of not knowing what I am talking about when I talk about the business side of the publishing industry. All anyone has to do is a short Google search to see that their financial problems are a fact. I have personally had over thirty years accounting experience, the latest in the mortgage division of a very large, successful international financial institution. I know how businesses look at bottom lines and I know how and why decisions are made. I've been through three Chapter 11's, I know what an unhealthy company looks like from the inside, and I know in general what kinds of steps have to be taken to get them healthy again.

From the beginning here on the Trek BBS, there have been a lot of assumptions made about me, and you haven't got one of them right yet. Not even this last one.

Brit

I've never said you have to read the books to be fans. If you read my posts, all I say is that by not reading the books you have denied yourself what is - in my opinion - a good read. I said you should read the books because they help to explain/repair/reiterate whatever - in Before Dishonour.

I don't exclude you, you exclude yourself. You've declared yourself adverse to the idea of a dead Janeway whilst I have declared myself...meh. If Janeway's brought back badly I'll probably moan about it for a while, but in the end I won't care that much because I like the character - I just imagine that her being brought back will be a contrivance of some definition or another.

And financial matters are simple, there was a lot of comments on this thread that the reason Marco, Margaret et al were laid off was because they'd killed Janeway or otherwise been poor editors. I don't understand why you're that you can do a google search and prove what we were saying...?

 

[DigificWriter]

Have you crossed the line from obsessed to extreme about the so called militant Janeway fans? Hmmm?

I would say the answer to that question would be 'no'.

I think your attitude comes more from insinuation than statement, at least on my part. I don't care if you like "Before Dishonor." I don't care if you enjoy the non-Janeway relaunch. You asked for someone to explain how Janeway was out of character, and I did that. I think I kept my tone very calm and objective in the process.

As previously noted, I appreciated that you took the time to explain your position as far as Janeway's characterization in Before Dishonor goes, but would like to point out that you later dismissed - or seemed to dismiss - mine and JB's counterpoints concerning why we disagreed with your assertions, thereby coming across as a little bit standoffish and intransigent.

I think in my frustration that I unfairly lumped your perceived intransigence in with the confrontational and over-the-top behavior and attitudes of Brit and others, and for that I apologize.

Being a fan doesn't mean that you must like it all. I like the franchise, but I have my preferences. Not reading the current Voyager relaunch is no worse than a fan who won't watch Enterprise or won't read a spinoff novel, like Vanguard, for example. Janeway (and Voyager) fans are often criticized for their fervor over their dedication to the character and the series. I think that is a bit odd, to tell the truth. Isn't that kind of fervor a normal part of being a fan?

To a point, yes. However, there's a very fine line between fervor, obsession. And extremism, and the attitudes and behavior of some of the 'pro-Janeway' crowd who've posted here have, from my perspective, crossed all of those lines.

 

[JB2005]

Amazon rank for books sold, I'm not sure if these totals include Kindle sales.

Unworthy - # 95,916
Before Dishonor - #101,242
Full Circle - #305,413
The Needs of the Many - #365,584

I'll add the post-Endgame Golden books even though Trek sales in general were in a completely different place close to a decade ago.

Homecoming - #77,603
The Farther Shore - #186,711
Old Wounds - #564,406
Enemy of My Enemy - #632,862

Let me just add to this -

Children of the Storm (bear in mind this is only pre-orders)

#41,492

 

[Brit]

I think this is a logical fallacy. If Janeway was selling Voyager books I seriously doubt they would've removed the character to begin with.

They would have if they believed that they would sell more without her, and seeing that most of their interaction with fans was here on the BBS, I can fully understand where they could have gotten that impression. You have a logical fallacy too. In fact you have two because you are placing the blame again on the character not the producer of the fiction. How do you judge which characters are selling? How do we know that it was Janeway's fault and not the Doctor's, or Seven's? It has to be the writer.

I respect the fact that you work in a Mortgage Division for a long time, I was a Bank Operations manager for over a decade. I doubt the experiences either of us have had make us qualified to make financial decisions in the publishing industry.

I don't particulary care for the mortgage industry, but they pay well, the job doesn't involve state sales tax filings, I get 29 days of vacation every year and I am very close to retirement. I also have experienced the oil field industry, the commercial lawn care industry, and the utility distributor industry. Bottom lines are bottom lines, and the reactions are pretty much the same across the board. I have found out that if you can reconcille a commercial bank statement you can work just about anywhere.

Brit

 

[BillJ]

Amazon rank for books sold, I'm not sure if these totals include Kindle sales.

Unworthy - # 95,916
Before Dishonor - #101,242
Full Circle - #305,413
The Needs of the Many - #365,584

I'll add the post-Endgame Golden books even though Trek sales in general were in a completely different place close to a decade ago.

Homecoming - #77,603
The Farther Shore - #186,711
Old Wounds - #564,406
Enemy of My Enemy - #632,862

Let me just add to this -

Children of the Storm (bear in mind this is only pre-orders)

#41,492