^ And I refuted that assessment...
if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen
Feels more like an endless downward spiral than a kitchen.
What refutation?
Full Circle
- Thread starter Hannibal
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Feels more like an endless downward spiral than a kitchen.
What refutation?
I was limiting my analysis to "Before Dishonor," which is what you were asking about. Your best argument against Janeway not being OOC in that novel is by pointing out the repair work Beyer did in "Full Circle" to get her back IN character. All that does is prove my argument, not yours. Guess you missed that.
Not really...
"JLP had undermined her authority as an Admiral (3 grades ahead of him no less) by refusing to follow orders, and worse he'd been right and we all know how much Janeway hates being wrong (that's fairly consistent in the show)"
"She is now an Admiral, it is quite possible her motivations and outlook could have changed. She has been in the AQ for 3 years. Compare Season 1 Janeway with Season 4 Janeway with Season 7 Janeway with Nemesis Janeway."
"JLP had undermined her authority as an Admiral (3 grades ahead of him no less) by refusing to follow orders, and worse he'd been right and we all know how much Janeway hates being wrong (that's fairly consistent in the show)"
"She is now an Admiral, it is quite possible her motivations and outlook could have changed. She has been in the AQ for 3 years. Compare Season 1 Janeway with Season 4 Janeway with Season 7 Janeway with Nemesis Janeway."
Only in your own opinion. Whether an opposing mind is open or closed is subjective and not any kind of point. Single mindedness might be a better assessment, and yes focusing on a goal is single mindedness not closed minded, and it does get things done.
Brit
Brit: I have to disagree with you; whether or not someone's mind is open or closed can in fact be judged in an objective manner, specifically based on the behavior of said individual. You and Aunt Kate (as well as others) have more than demonstrated that you've closed your minds to anything that doesn't fit your narrow viewpoint/opinion concerning Janeway's involvement in Before Dishonor, her death in said novel, and her overall involvement in the post-finale Trek Lit prior to said death.
Aunt Kate: JB did in fact refute your assessments/arguments, as did I, so to pretend that we didn't only enhances/enforces our assessment of the state of your mind when it comes to anything having to do with Janeway and Trek Lit, both prior to and following Before Dishonor.
Aunt Kate: JB did in fact refute your assessments/arguments, as did I, so to pretend that we didn't only enhances/enforces our assessment of the state of your mind when it comes to anything having to do with Janeway and Trek Lit, both prior to and following Before Dishonor.
And you have lock your mind as surely as you say we have. We want Janeway back, and I am proud to be working to bring her back. Your idea of openminded is "see it our way instead of yours, admit Janeway is evil and rotten, and there is no place in the Trek fandom for anyone that likes the Janeway character."
Again this is your opinion and not subjective or open minded at all.
If Janeway was brought back there would still be books that you could read without her, they would be called Next Generation books or Deep Space Nine books etc. As it is now there are no books for Janeway's fans. Just how is your opinion to leave her out of the Trek Universe any kind of open mindedness?
There is the opinion that one can be so open minded that their brains fall out.
Brit
I'd like to see where I said that Janeway was evil or rotten? I've simply stated, multiple times, that I am enjoying the dynamics of Voyager far more without the character than with.
The fact that I'm currently looking at several Voyager novels sitting on my bookshelf that do feature the Janeway character should show that I'm open to stories that feature the character.
Can you say the same?
I never said that the current Voyager novels are bad. What I said was that I don't enjoy reading novels where Janeway is OOC, as she is in "Before Dishonor."
I enjoyed Beyer's story "Isabo's Shirt" and her part of the "String Theory" trilogy. I have no reason to believe that the quality of her writing is somehow worse in these two novels, especially since so many readers say they enjoy them. She may very well reclaim Janeway in "Full Circle," but that is not quite enough for me.
I want Janeway back alive and well. I prefer to skip any Voyager novel that lacks Janeway as a character, and, for that reason, am giving the current Voyager relaunch a pass. I don't see how that means that I have a closed mind. It's my loss, I suppose.
I enjoyed Beyer's story "Isabo's Shirt" and her part of the "String Theory" trilogy. I have no reason to believe that the quality of her writing is somehow worse in these two novels, especially since so many readers say they enjoy them. She may very well reclaim Janeway in "Full Circle," but that is not quite enough for me.
I want Janeway back alive and well. I prefer to skip any Voyager novel that lacks Janeway as a character, and, for that reason, am giving the current Voyager relaunch a pass. I don't see how that means that I have a closed mind. It's my loss, I suppose.
Oh, I am not afraid. I know I will enjoy it . . . as soon as Janeway is back, I'm spending whatever coin is needed to get all the novels I have missed in the meantime. It will be a great weekend of reading!
And yes. Although I have "swapped" copies, I will buy new ones--to reward whatever editor or writer brings her back!
And yes. Although I have "swapped" copies, I will buy new ones--to reward whatever editor or writer brings her back!
I'm starting to think maybe it comes down to fear. Certain people are so invested in the Janeway character that they are simply afraid to try anything that doesn't feature the her.
Because they're afraid they might enjoy it.
Why don't you just accept the reasons people give for not reading a book rather than make up stuff like this?
^^^
Because we aren't allowed to like Janeway apparently.
Nor are we allowed to wish that she's back.
Because we aren't allowed to like Janeway apparently.
Nor are we allowed to wish that she's back.
I'd like to see where I said that Janeway was evil or rotten? I've simply stated, multiple times, that I am enjoying the dynamics of Voyager far more without the character than with.
The fact that I'm currently looking at several Voyager novels sitting on my bookshelf that do feature the Janeway character should show that I'm open to stories that feature the character.
Can you say the same?
Absolutely not, and I won't back down nor will I shut up. I want Janeway books. That is not closed minded. I never said that Full Circle was a bad book, I said that I want Janeway back and in protest I am not buying any Trek books until that happens, then like Aunt Kate I will go back and purchase those books I have missed. I have a lot of Trek Books including the Titan books, and even New Frontier. I have no problem with books that don't feature her, I do have a problem with no books about her at all. That's why your analogy is skewed, and from my point of view makes you just as closed minded as you say I am. You are trying to stack the deck in your favor and that is neither open minded nor fair.
Brit
We've never said any of that, we've just explained why we personally don't think she should come back from a Trekverse and a story point of view.
Janeway was an underused character, it pissed me off that Pocket got rid of her. It also pissed me off that they got rid of Mark McHenry, Selar, Owen Paris, and a host of others.
But it was years ago. Since then the books that have come out have been of a high quality, I'm not going to stop reading them because Janeway's dead. And to be honest I prefer Voyager without Janeway because the other characters aren't in her shadow. I'd like Voyager just as much if Janeway came back and the characters were allowed to keep their prominence, but I don't think that would happen.
And from a Trekverse point of view it made sense to me that Janeway died. I didn't like it, but I wasn't supposed to.
Janeway was an underused character, it pissed me off that Pocket got rid of her. It also pissed me off that they got rid of Mark McHenry, Selar, Owen Paris, and a host of others.
But it was years ago. Since then the books that have come out have been of a high quality, I'm not going to stop reading them because Janeway's dead. And to be honest I prefer Voyager without Janeway because the other characters aren't in her shadow. I'd like Voyager just as much if Janeway came back and the characters were allowed to keep their prominence, but I don't think that would happen.
And from a Trekverse point of view it made sense to me that Janeway died. I didn't like it, but I wasn't supposed to.
This post is further proof that you've closed your mind to any opinion that isn't in lockstep with yours, because you're the second person to insinuate that I am not a Janeway fan, despite the fact that I have said repeatedly that she happens to be one of my favorite characters from Voyager. As I noted earlier, the fact that I am not of the opinion that her lack of involvement is a detriment to Voyager's post-finale storytelling, or that she must be involved in said storytelling to be considered authentic/quintessential Voyager, or that she was written out of character in Before Dishonor, that does not mean that I'm not a fan of her or of Voyager.
You don't act like a fan, and you have no sympathy for those that are her fans. I made a post earlier in this thread, #49 to be exact, remember
And you know not one of you spoke up and said, "I'm open minded so I am going to rush right out and buy that book and read it. In fact the one comment was "No way will I read that." Again I'm just as open minded as anyone else that has posted in this thread including you and Bill J. I am a fan of Janeway, Chakotay, the Doctor, Tom Paris, Harry Kim, B'Elanna Torres, Neelix, Tuvok, and Seven of Nine, however I am not particularly a fan of a star ship. Voyager isn't a ship it's a group of people and Janeway is a part of that group and without her there is a huge big empty hole. That is not closed minded just a different mindset.
You don't want to read "Games of Command" and you are not closed minded, but because we don't want Voyager without Janeway we are. You cannot have it both ways.
Brit
The link is to Amazon, with a synopsis, a four and a half star rating, cover art by Stephen Youll, and you can search the pages.
It's one thing not to be interested in a specific genre, in this case romance. It's quite a different thing to be interested in a sci-fi series and decide not to read based on the absence of one character.
Why does it bother you so much? Why do you want to judge people's reading tastes and preferences as reasonable and unreasonable?
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